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New Garage Build

Thread: New Garage Build

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  1. Dr Maphesto's Avatar

    Dr Maphesto said:
    Quote Originally Posted by sennister View Post
    A quick search turned up this. Not sure how accurate it is across all boilers. It mentioned it doesn't heat the glycol as much in warmer weather compared to when it is really cold out. Also mentions the 65F cutoff where it goes into sleep mode which I remember the heating guy mentioning. They mainly talk about radiator heating but this could apply to in floor heat. The temps are different though. For instance the floors get 120F for a target temp. Where when I get the lines up and running out to a water to air heat exchanger, they will be at 160F.

    Outside Air Reset For Boilers
    Thanks. Seems obvious once it's explained!
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  2. sennister's Avatar

    sennister said:
    The contractor was out wrapping up some loose ends. We now have enough of a railing to pass inspection. He is going to come back out and add a top rail. The railing is removable so that we can easily use the FEL to move large heavy items into the mud and laundry room.

    I will be calling tomorrow to schedule the final electrical inspection. He will then schedule the building inspector.

    Still have work to do in the spring but nothing we need to leave the permit open for.

    JD Z950R 60" Deck with DFS Collection System

    JD X585, 54C deck,
    CTC Model X4750 F.E.L - Modified Imp Pressure Relief from 900 to 1175PSI, Power Flow and MC519 cart, 54-inch Quick-Hitch Front Blade, 47-inch Quick-Hitch Snow Blower, 3-pt hitch, HF Quick Hitch, Heavy Hitch, 48" box blade/rear blade, Dethacher, 3pt Sprayer
  3. Jet Dr.'s Avatar

    Jet Dr. said:
    Quote Originally Posted by ssjfyr View Post
    Yep, mine looks exactly like that one in the picture. Mine is installed on a north wall about 6 ft from ground level.

    My initial thought was, why do I need to install this thing, I want the garage to be XX degrees, so go ahead boiler, make it XX degrees, who cares what the temperature is outside, we are only dealing with the air inside this garage. I'm not bringing in outside air to heat up then blow that heated air around inside the house with a fan (and also for combustion), I'm just using some heated glycol in sealed loops heated up by some gas flame from external air then exhausted, none of that air (combustion or otherwise) will come into the garage. The thermostat says XX degrees based on the air temperature inside the garage, so just make it XX degrees inside the garage.

    Turns out I didn't know better than the engineers who design very expensive boilers and boiler systems. Not too sure how/why exactly, but once I installed it, it performed way better. Outside temps must make a difference in how much/what temp, to heat the glycol. The engineers, and the boiler itself, are smarter than me. More even/consistent heat and way better recovery times (both when opening the overhead door or man doors, and also when there were weather/temperature changes outside, go figure!).

    So obviously the slab, and the building itself, are affected by outdoor temps. Maybe if, IF, the slab and building were 100% insulated and not affected by outdoor temp swings, then only the air temp inside the garage would matter, , but I'll leave that to the experts!
    I don't know exactly how it works, but I suspect its a similar method to the way the auto temp control works on a car, (At least on a Ford) Ford uses a "sun load" sensor for the air conditioning portion. So if it is a bright sunny day and it knows it is 90 degrees outside. It probably schedules the cold air differently (via blend door)than it would if it were 90 degrees and the sun was setting. Like wise for your boiler system. if it is -10 outside it knows it is going to have to heat the fluid to a higher temp and possibly even circulate the fluid faster to maintain whatever temp you have set versus maintaining the same interior temp if it is 35 outside.

    just my $.18

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  4. sennister's Avatar

    sennister said:
    Well I have been a bit busy the last few days so I didn't update the thread.

    Thursday the state electrical inspector came out and.....

    I Failed Inspection....

    Not a big deal, it was a small thing that I hadn't thought of. His inspection went well until we got tot he panel. I was resetting the GFI breakers as he was going around testing each one. He seemed impressed with how I had things set up and overall liked the work. So why did I fail? A small technicality.

    He asked how the panel in the garage is hooked up. I said it is the primary (first) panel and connected directly to the meter. He then asks where the feeds are to the house? I said at the meter there is a splitter and one line goes to this panel in the garage and the other to the panel in the basement of the house. He then asks if there is a disconnect on the side of the house? No, it is a direct feed from the meter, it is in 2" conduit and runs outside of the house and I point out where it comes into the building and up into the panel to make sure it is less than 6' from the point of entry. I said the one going to the house is similar but we didn't touch that. He then told me that I need to add a sign to the outside of my panel in the garage and the panel in the house. The signs need to read 1 of 2 and 2 of 2. He said it doesn't matter which one is 1 and which one is 2. I have to do that because if the fire department or someone doing work were to come in, flip off what they assume is the main breaker in the first panel because they see it is bonded, they could get electrocuted as they would assume the entire house is dead but I have another first panel feeding power to parts of the house. That makes sense. I asked if there were any special requirements that the signage needs to meet and where should I get it? Can I just write on the panel, can I use a label maker? He said he would like to see a 2x3 or so plaque stuck to the outside of the door. Something in contrasting colors but there really isn't a requirement that detailed. It just needs to be marked. I mentioned that I have a buddy that makes plates for trophies and such and he said that would be perfect. Just have a contrasting color of some sort. Don't engrave it on brass or copper where it might be hard to read.

    He said he will send over the inspection report and I just have to sign it and send it back once the concern is resolved.

    Easy enough.

    Friday the building inspector was supposed to stop out. He never showed up. Grr, sat around all day and a no show. I tried calling him but it is his office so no answer. I called the general contractor since he is the one that scheduled it. Ht tried calling and got the same thing. I wasn't sure if maybe he had a different number as he does quite a bit of work in this area but he had the same number that I had. I guess we will have him do it this week. Not sure I can be around for it though.

    Not much done this weekend with anything as I was camping with my son and his Boy Scout Troop all weekend.

    JD Z950R 60" Deck with DFS Collection System

    JD X585, 54C deck,
    CTC Model X4750 F.E.L - Modified Imp Pressure Relief from 900 to 1175PSI, Power Flow and MC519 cart, 54-inch Quick-Hitch Front Blade, 47-inch Quick-Hitch Snow Blower, 3-pt hitch, HF Quick Hitch, Heavy Hitch, 48" box blade/rear blade, Dethacher, 3pt Sprayer
  5. Dr Maphesto's Avatar

    Dr Maphesto said:
    I would not have thought of that either. But it makes sense.
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  6. JD4044M's Avatar

    JD4044M said:
    He let you off easy cause could have required you to group your main disconnects because it is one structure. Not sure how he missed that one? You can have up to 6 disconnects to turn off the power to the home but they have to be grouped in one location.

    The Code;

    More than one disconnect
    While 230.70(A) requires a service disconnecting means, the term “disconnecting means” is defined in Article 100 and addresses not only a single means, but also multiple means that serve together in a group arrangement as the building service disconnect. The long-standing NEC requirement places a limit on the quantity of disconnects permitted to serve as the required service disconnecting means; Section 230.71(A) clarifies that this quantity is not more than six switches or circuit breakers or any combination not exceeding six. The idea is not to have more than six motions of the hand or actions to remove all power from the building or structure being served. The service disconnecting means arrangement can be a single switch or circuit breaker. It can be up to six switches or circuit breakers in a single enclosure or up to six switches or circuit breakers in separate enclosures. Again, each of the service disconnects must be marked to identify it as such.
    Grouping service disconnects
    This is a gray area in the Code, but the objectives should be easy to achieve by applying common sense and a practical approach to the requirement. The Code falls short of specifying a distance in the grouping requirement because of the differences in physical characteristics between large and small service equipment. Ideally, each building should have a main or single means of disconnect. One action or hand motion should remove all the power in the building. Section 230.72(A) of the Code addresses the grouping requirements quite specifically and simply. The general rules are that the two to six service disconnects permitted in 230.71 must be grouped in the same location, either in a single enclosure or in separate enclosures located adjacent to each other. Obviously, the larger the service, the wider the grouping distance can become. This is where the service disconnect marking comes into play and is why it is so important. Where the service disconnecting means is provided in a multiple-occupancy building, generally, each of the building occupants must have access to their respective service disconnect.
    Another important provision in the Code is to mark the service equipment to indicate if there is emergency power source, legally required standby power source, or optional standby power source and the location of such sources. This alerts occupants and responders that, while normal power is disconnected, the backup power system is functioning. See sections 700.8(A), 701.7(A) and 702.7(A)
    Each building or structure must be provided with a service disconnecting means. It can be a single switch or circuit breaker or up to six in a single enclosure or in separate enclosures grouped in the same location. The service disconnect(s) must be marked as a service disconnect.

    Your electrician should have known this common code. They should pick up the tab on the signage he wants and have it engraved on plactic to look right and glue or screw them to the panels . They could have grouped both the disconnects in the beginning and just ran some more pipe.
    Last edited by JD4044M; Yesterday at 10:41 PM.
  7. sennister's Avatar

    sennister said:
    Actually if they did what I wanted in the first place, this wouldn't have been an issue. I wanted a combination meter box and panel on the side of the house.

    Then the first panel and breakers would be outside with the meter. Then the panel in the house and the one in the garage would have been subpanels. I blame that on a breakdown of communication between when a general contractor insists on playing middle man between the customer and electrician. I have a feeling he just remembered that we were upgrading the service to 400A and I needed a new meter for this. So the electrician ordered the meter box. In the end I kind of wish I would have stopped them and made them put in what I wanted. The issue was that I have an account with the largest electrical supply company in the area and I was going to get a panel there but they didn't have any. It isn't something that is used very often. I also had the utility company scheduled for the disconnect and reconnect. To reschedule that would have cost 6 weeks min provided there were no storms. Then trying to get the electrician lined up again. Had I known we would have been without power to the back half of the property from April-Oct, I would have rescheduled. I guess the other reason I didn't was because I am still considering a standby generator over by the meter. I really was close to doing that then I would have done the meter upgrade, run that into the automatic transfer switch. I am pretty sure that counts as my first breaker and disconnect then and everything else is sub panels. I may still do that.

    He never said anything about a disconnect. Just asked if there was one there and once I said no he only said I need the signage. There is a lever inside the meter box. I don't know if that is a disconnect or a bypass. Maybe they just go up clip the tag and do something there. Or we have above ground power so it is easy enough to cut power out on the pole. I don't see where a disconnect on the side of the house next to the meter would add anything in terms of conduit. Maybe a couple inches to go from the meter to the disconnect. Everything is buried in conduit anyhow. I don't think that would change.

    As for signage. I am really not worried about the cost aspect of it. I am kind of shocked that the master electrician didn't know I needed the signage. The guy that is making the sign for me is a buddy. I am upgrading his computers to Win 10 and that is way more work than he will be doing for me to make two signs. I guess technically I passed my inspection. The inspection that failed would have been the one pulled by the electrician. He had two permits. One for the meter box and service upgrade. Then a second one for the panel install in the garage and feeder lines to the pole barn/shop and small detached garage. My permit was just internal electrical. Basically all the outlets and lights.

    I did get the inspection report last night and this is what it said.

    NEC 225.32, The disconnecting means shall be installed either inside or outside of the building
    or structure served or where the conductors pass through the building or structure. The
    disconnecting means shall be at a readily accessible location nearest the point of entrance of
    the conductors.
    This is within 6' of point of entry as they ran the connection from the meter box through conduit buried outside the house. It doesn't say anything about co-locating them. Just nearest point of entrance of the conductors.

    NEC 225.37, Where a building has a combination of services, supplying it, a permanent plaque
    shall be installed at each location.
    This is the requirement for adding 1 of 2 and 2 of 2.

    Garage addition (final)
    (add 200 amp service with 16-circuits and re-feed 2 existing services to out-buildings)
    Correct the noted deficiencies. Return a signed copy of the Inspection Report to the inspector
    when the corrections are complete but no later than 14 days from the date of issuance unless
    otherwise instructed by the inspector.
    Last edited by sennister; Today at 07:52 AM.

    JD Z950R 60" Deck with DFS Collection System

    JD X585, 54C deck,
    CTC Model X4750 F.E.L - Modified Imp Pressure Relief from 900 to 1175PSI, Power Flow and MC519 cart, 54-inch Quick-Hitch Front Blade, 47-inch Quick-Hitch Snow Blower, 3-pt hitch, HF Quick Hitch, Heavy Hitch, 48" box blade/rear blade, Dethacher, 3pt Sprayer
  8. JD4044M's Avatar

    JD4044M said:
    Sounds like you have a 380 amp Meter Socket with manual bypass to save the meter contacts pulling it hot and reducing the amps flowing thru the meter socket. 1/2 the amps will flow thru the bypass but they double the meter KW Hours. Even pulling the meter you still have power till the manual bypass is also opened. I have the same Meter Base for my 400 amp service. A 400 amp rain tight disconnect would coat as much as your whole service did with all the parts plus! Looks like they are saying they want a main disconnect in or for the panel in the basement panel. If you have a panel that has 6 breakers to turn off the power you will need to add a Main Breaker cause the panel in the Garage counts as 1 of the 6 means to turn off all power. I would make them pick up the costs since you paid for a professional who should know those thing and never have done the job that way in the first place. Might bite you in the butt one day if you sell the place and it is inspected and they find this problem cause it is still a code violation even tho the guy is letting you slide the next one might not?
  9. sennister's Avatar

    sennister said:
    Here is the old meter socket before the upgrade.

    And the new one post upgrade.

    It is something smaller like you said. 380A or whatever they do for 400A service I thought it was 320A? You can make out the red lever in there. Maybe it is a bypass I don't mess in that box because it is sealed anyhow.

    What I wanted was a Siemens MC0816B1400RLTM

    My cost on that is about $600. So, not that bad considering the Milbank Meter Socket that they installed had a my cost of about $320. While I would have had a few more breakers, it wasn't that big of a price difference.

    Where the costs went through the roof was when I considered an automatic transfer switch. I am still considering this. A 400A ATS was a couple grand. The benefit with what I have now is that technically it passed inspection as long as I add the signs. It makes it easier for me to add a transfer switch later to do a standby generator the legal way. If I add that I would be scrapping that $600 Meter Load Center. This way I can keep the meter socket that they installed and add a disconnect if that is what they really want in the end and the transfer switch. That is still on the table in the next few years. We also have our NG meter right around the corner from the electrical meter so a stand by generator would work well in that same area. The bedrooms are also on the other end of the house so noise isn't an issue.

    JD Z950R 60" Deck with DFS Collection System

    JD X585, 54C deck,
    CTC Model X4750 F.E.L - Modified Imp Pressure Relief from 900 to 1175PSI, Power Flow and MC519 cart, 54-inch Quick-Hitch Front Blade, 47-inch Quick-Hitch Snow Blower, 3-pt hitch, HF Quick Hitch, Heavy Hitch, 48" box blade/rear blade, Dethacher, 3pt Sprayer
  10. JD4044M's Avatar

    JD4044M said:
    Your right 320 amp been a while working off 25 years plus ago memory. I love that Home Depot 400 Amp Transfer Switch, Service Meter and panel all in one. Wish they had that when I did my service.

    You could solve all the problems adding a 100 amp and 200 amp non fused disconnect (cheaper)on that Meter socket one on each side. You have the room and looks like the wires to the panels would make it to the 2 Disconnects with out splicing and just need to add the wires from the top lugs to the meter socket lugs with out any splicing. Make the 100 amp(looks like 100a to me?) feeding the house panel a Transfer switch for your generator and put a small Gentran one out of the Garage panel to pick up the circuits you also need powered up. This would cost a less then $600.00 and make your home up to code. In fact I would tell the contractor I want both my home panel disconnects on the Meter socket to meet code and the cost of the 2 disconnects I will pick up and you can pick up the cost of wiring them into the meter socket cause it will require splices to get the feed wires in to the disconnects and other hardware and labor. This would be fair I know if I had done that job and missed that I would pick up the extra cost as it was my screw up not yours!

    PS: I always cut and re/connected the Service Drop from the pole and let the power company re/connect the wire again when the inspection was done. That way nobody went with out power in the process. It was a gray area to do this but I did it anyway for 13 years and never was called on it. Did short out a set of lines off a power pole once and boy did it make black smoke, noise and scare the crap out of the people in a pool next door watching me on the roof shaking the service drop to come apart. It was like a big ARC Welder going off with the hot wire touching the bare one. Never blew the fuse on the pole either? I cut the last wire and it sprung back and hit the neutral while I had the weight of the wires in my gloved hand. From then on I tied off the line and taped off the wire as I cut them holding each one till I did it. Living to learn or is that learning to live?
    Last edited by JD4044M; Today at 12:45 PM.