What all do you damage when backing with forks curled and hit immovable object?
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Thread: What all do you damage when backing with forks curled and hit immovable object?

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    What all do you damage when backing with forks curled and hit immovable object?

    After re-adjusting a large landscape boulder, I backed up with forks fully curled down, hooked one fork and with a BANG! the black coded aluminum hydraulic line from the SCV to the female coupler ruptured.
    With info gotten by surfing GTT, I replaced the line (thank you very much, as getting to the innards was a puzzle).
    BUT, when testing the workings of the SCV, I found the raise/lower worked perfectly but the break out/dip function went through one cycle only, then jammed at full curl.
    The SCV will not release the pressure in that circuit after engine shut down and all the joysticking I can tolerate.

    I have done the following diagnostics/purge exercises;
    - Run the tractor around at max throttle while operating power steering, PTO, forward/reverse, all the while putting the SCV through all its functions,
    - Cracked the cylinder connections to expel air,
    - Connected the red and yellow lines to the black and red (ie. raise/lower lines to curl function and it works)
    - Lit a candle to the tractor spirit.
    and, no joy.
    Does anybody have any info about this SCV, does it have a check or relief valve or hydraulic fuse/weak point that needs attention without having to buy a thousand $CAD SCV replacement ?

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    Keeper of the GTT Cookies dieselshadow's Avatar
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    I would double check your quick disconnects. They can easily be damaged or malfunction. We seem to get posts on a weekly basis that end up being the QDís. Cheap and easy, thatís what Iíd go to first.

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    If you created enough pressure in the system to burst an otherwise good steel (they are not aluminum) line, then likely the internals of the cylinders, QD's, and/or valve are damaged too. There is no relief valve on the work port side of the valve.

    So the the joystick "jammed at full curl"? Or just the two dump/curl cylinders? Maybe I'm not understanding your post clearly.

    Sorry I can't post the valve diagram from JDParts now, but there is really no replacement parts available for it.
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    Shock blown curl function.

    Quote Originally Posted by dieselshadow View Post
    I would double check your quick disconnects. They can easily be damaged or malfunction. We seem to get posts on a weekly basis that end up being the QDís. Cheap and easy, thatís what Iíd go to first.

    Thanks for that. One female QD had debris in it keeping it from operating, looked like rubber.
    Checked connections to loader curl cylinders and one o-ring was shredded and partly gone, so maybe the rubber.
    Total parts were 2 QD, one metal tube between QD and selector valve, 2 0-rings and 4 litres of hydraulic fluid.

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    I agree with kennyd....if this spiked enough pressure in the circuit to blow a steel line, there is no telling what all is hurt. I can say this, most likely more was hurt than the steel line.

    That said, It looks like you found pieces of what you think are o-rings, etc. in the QC. Well this may be internal seal pieces from the bucket roll cylinder piston seals or the internal lining of hydraulic hoses or maybe seals from the inside of the SCV. It is hard to tell.

    Guys, please understand, when using forks or a bucket, do not do things that will cause leverage forces with the forks or bucket while backing up or driving forward with the tractor. THERE ARE NO PORT RELIEFS IN THE PORTS OF THE FEL SCV!!!!! The bucket roll and FEL lift cylinders are essentially locked in position when the SCV is centered, albeit there is minor internal leakage in the SCV.

    Any leverage forces that you create by digging forks tips into the ground while pushing or backing up with the tractor or doing the same with the bucket will cause extreme pressure spikes in the bucket roll or FEL lift cylinder circuits and will blow something apart.

    The hydraulic relief only is in play when the SCV is actually moved to a position.

    If you are doing something that potentially will cause leverage forces, then you should hold the SCV controller engaged, on relief, while pushing or pulling. This will at least keep the relief in play and will prevent over-pressuring a circuit. Of course, if you have the relief in play, this will limit the amount of force you will be able to generate, which may mean, you will not be able to get the piece that you are trying to move, to move; which means you may have to get a bigger tractor to do the job that you are trying to do with too small of a tractor, just sayin!!!! I know, we all do it, but you have to know, when you are trying to do something that isn't supposed to be done, you may break something!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray_PA View Post
    I agree with kennyd....if this spiked enough pressure in the circuit to blow a steel line, there is no telling what all is hurt. I can say this, most likely more was hurt than the steel line.

    That said, It looks like you found pieces of what you think are o-rings, etc. in the QC. Well this may be internal seal pieces from the bucket roll cylinder piston seals or the internal lining of hydraulic hoses or maybe seals from the inside of the SCV. It is hard to tell.

    Guys, please understand, when using forks or a bucket, do not do things that will cause leverage forces with the forks or bucket while backing up or driving forward with the tractor. THERE ARE NO PORT RELIEFS IN THE PORTS OF THE FEL SCV!!!!! The bucket roll and FEL lift cylinders are essentially locked in position when the SCV is centered, albeit there is minor internal leakage in the SCV.

    Any leverage forces that you create by digging forks tips into the ground while pushing or backing up with the tractor or doing the same with the bucket will cause extreme pressure spikes in the bucket roll or FEL lift cylinder circuits and will blow something apart.

    The hydraulic relief only is in play when the SCV is actually moved to a position.

    If you are doing something that potentially will cause leverage forces, then you should hold the SCV controller engaged, on relief, while pushing or pulling. This will at least keep the relief in play and will prevent over-pressuring a circuit. Of course, if you have the relief in play, this will limit the amount of force you will be able to generate, which may mean, you will not be able to get the piece that you are trying to move, to move; which means you may have to get a bigger tractor to do the job that you are trying to do with too small of a tractor, just sayin!!!! I know, we all do it, but you have to know, when you are trying to do something that isn't supposed to be done, you may break something!!




    You should always have some mild pressure on the joystick applied when running the loader, unless you're carrying a load in the air.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray_PA View Post
    I agree with kennyd....if this spiked enough pressure in the circuit to blow a steel line, there is no telling what all is hurt. I can say this, most likely more was hurt than the steel line.

    That said, It looks like you found pieces of what you think are o-rings, etc. in the QC. Well this may be internal seal pieces from the bucket roll cylinder piston seals or the internal lining of hydraulic hoses or maybe seals from the inside of the SCV. It is hard to tell.

    Guys, please understand, when using forks or a bucket, do not do things that will cause leverage forces with the forks or bucket while backing up or driving forward with the tractor. THERE ARE NO PORT RELIEFS IN THE PORTS OF THE FEL SCV!!!!! The bucket roll and FEL lift cylinders are essentially locked in position when the SCV is centered, albeit there is minor internal leakage in the SCV.

    Any leverage forces that you create by digging forks tips into the ground while pushing or backing up with the tractor or doing the same with the bucket will cause extreme pressure spikes in the bucket roll or FEL lift cylinder circuits and will blow something apart.

    The hydraulic relief only is in play when the SCV is actually moved to a position.

    If you are doing something that potentially will cause leverage forces, then you should hold the SCV controller engaged, on relief, while pushing or pulling. This will at least keep the relief in play and will prevent over-pressuring a circuit. Of course, if you have the relief in play, this will limit the amount of force you will be able to generate, which may mean, you will not be able to get the piece that you are trying to move, to move; which means you may have to get a bigger tractor to do the job that you are trying to do with too small of a tractor, just sayin!!!! I know, we all do it, but you have to know, when you are trying to do something that isn't supposed to be done, you may break something!!
    Well I thought a JD was supposed to take a beating and keep on digging? The situations you describe are encountered by most people and should have been anticipated by the engineers that design JD tractors. Aint JD's supposed to be the best?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfloyd4445 View Post
    Well I thought a JD was supposed to take a beating and keep on digging? The situations you describe are encountered by most people and should have been anticipated by the engineers that design JD tractors. Aint JD's supposed to be the best?
    No engineer can design a product anticipating all of the ways that it will be misused out in the field.
    The attachment is called a pallet fork. Pallet forks are designed for lifting.
    If it was designed for digging, it would have been called a digging fork.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    No engineer can design a product anticipating all of the ways that it will be misused out in the field.
    The attachment is called a pallet fork. Pallet forks are designed for lifting.
    If it was designed for digging, it would have been called a digging fork.
    Iíve been around tractors all my life and fork lifts half my life. I have never heard of digging with forks until I became a member of this forum. I have learned now that it is kind of common but just canít bring myself to do it. As you said - to me forks are a lifting device.
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    So, why don't engineers design something to not break under any conditions????

    Quote Originally Posted by bfloyd4445 View Post
    Well I thought a JD was supposed to take a beating and keep on digging? The situations you describe are encountered by most people and should have been anticipated by the engineers that design JD tractors. Aint JD's supposed to be the best?
    It is hard to answer this without going into detail, so this post is a long. Sorry!!.

    As anything, there are limits, even a shovel. If you put the tip of a shovel under a rock and push down on the handle, you will probably break the handle. The shovel isn't designed to be used that way. Do I have to say anymore!! Anticipating everything that users can do with a piece of equipment or vehicle isn't totally possible. This is the reason for warnings, cautions, usage directions, etc. in operators manuals.

    For example, is there anything on any rubber tired loader, including a tractor, to stop you from loading the bucket to its maximum capacity, raising the bucket all the way up and driving the loader sideways on a slope? Of course the answer is no. So lets take this one more step. Could a mfg. put something on a loader that would prevent you from doing this, the answer is yes. So why don't they???? Everyone should ponder this question!!!! Could it be cost or not required by a regulation?

    Engineers design things into machinery like tractors all the time to limit power or provide extra safety and many times we just bypass them, just saying!!

    Loaders, even larger loaders, are not designed with port reliefs for a good reason!!

    Lets say you are carrying something on the forks or bucket that has the FEL hydraulics maxed out with the bucket/forks raised. Every bump that you may hit causes dynamic loading to occur. Yes, this causes the hydraulic pressure to increase in the hydraulic circuits for the FEL lift and the bucket roll. If you had port reliefs, every time this dynamic pressure increase would occur, the FEL would lower slightly or the bucket/forks would roll down slightly due to the oil being evacuated across the port relief due to the dynamic pressure increase. This would be unacceptable to anyone that uses an FEL so port reliefs would never work in a FEL.

    So, what do engineers do. They design a safety factor into the FEL lift and bucket roll hydraulic circuits to be able to take anticipated dynamic hydraulic pressure increases in these circuits under normal working conditions.

    The design safety factor for hydraulic hose and hydraulic steel tubing is generally 4 : 1. This means it will take 4 times the maximum design pressure to blow the hose or tube. This is why, when designing a hydraulic system, you do not want to use hose or tube that is going to be worked continually at the maximum design pressure, because any hydraulic system used in equipment will see pressure spikes under normal use.

    Now, the leverage forces that a tractor can exert in a bucket roll or FEL lift hydraulic circuit can be extreme, especially when the end of 36" or 42" long forks are put under something or dug into the ground under a stump and then you push forward or back up with the tractor propel. If you are doing this type of work, you must hold the SCV to a work position while pushing. This will connect the main SCV relief into the system which will protect the FEL lift and bucket roll circuits while you are pushing or pulling.

    Now, lets be honest, the reason you are pushing or pulling with the tractor propel is because the FEL lift or more likely the bucket/fork roll is already on relief and you are trying to apply more force, so we back up or push forward with the tractor to create leverage forces. This is what breaks stuff!!!!!

    I work in the crane industry. I can tell you, engineers put limits and safety devices on top of safety devices on these machines and guess what, they still get wrecked.

    This happened two weeks ago on a bridge project north of Harrisburg, PA. This crane had systems in it that limited the amount of weight that could be put on it, so how did this happen? Again, there is nothing a manufacturer can do to prevent the human element!!
    https://www.pennlive.com/news/2018/0...dge_job_c.html

    You probably all remember this accident. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrkCt2VUgnQ

    So, how did that happen? Again, this crane had safety devices to prevent this type of thing from happening. Again, the human element.

    We use things all the time outside of the design parameters! We figure out how to do stuff that our tractors are not intended to do and yes, somethings these things we do can cause injury or damage.

    We use the FEL without proper ballast; we use larger attachments than the size that is recommended for the tractor size; we install Kenny's bolt on hooks on our bucket and then expect that it is impossible to bend the bucket no matter what we do; we buy a set of forks and then use them in ways they are not intended to be used and then expect nothing to break; we use our too small a truck to pull a larger trailer than it is mfg. to pull, and we do not use the proper hitch or brakes, and then we expect it to perform properly; we misuse tools all the time; etc; etc; etc.

    I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't do any of these things. All I am saying, in all of the examples, the engineers that designed the component, tool, vehicle,, tractor, attachment, etc., designed it to be used in an intended way. We overdo that sometimes and break stuff. I guess we should expect that it might break.

    The danger in surpassing the limits of some things is, people sometimes get injured or worse yet, killed.

    So really, can an engineer design something to eliminate the human element completely? Probably not, but as technology has improved, mfg. are applying this technology to vehicles, equipment, power tools, tractors, and many other power type equipment, and many times we then complain that we cannot fix our new vehicle because of the extreme technology, or we bypass safety devices or operational aids that are intended to eliminate the human element, or we misuse a tool and break it, and then complain that it didn't do what we were trying to do, etc., etc., etc. Again, just saying!!!!!

    So, if we want to be honest, it is the human element that is many times what causes the result and then we want to blame the tractor, or the vehicle or whatever.

    Be safe and never stop thinking!!!! Force yourself to think about what you are doing, prior to doing it. If you do not know, take the time to read the manual, do research to find out, ask the manufacturer, etc.

    In our age of technology, we have gotten complacent concerning our thinking and desire to learn skills. We expect manufacturers to eliminate every risk and as much as they try, the human element will be there in most things we do.

    Respectfully!!!!!
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