What is "Regen" or the "Regenerative" function of a FEL Valve? Read it here ;)
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Thread: What is "Regen" or the "Regenerative" function of a FEL Valve? Read it here ;)

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    Captain Hook Kennyd's Avatar
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    What is "Regen" or the "Regenerative" function of a FEL Valve? Read it here ;)

    Regen is a "feature" of most modern FEL (Front End Loader) valves, it's on the Dump (joystick far right) circuit, and is also referred to as "Fast Dump". The reason it is nice to have is that without it, the weight of a filled bucket can actually "pull" the bucket down faster then the fluid can enter the other side of the cylinder, this will create a air pocket and give the bucket a "floppy" feeling until the joystick is held in the dump mode a few seconds to refill the cylinder pushing the air past the seals. So we add "regen" or "regenerative" function to the valve.

    Regen solves this problem by actually filling both sides of the cylinder at the same time with hydraulic fluid. But how will that work you might ask? Well, because there is more volume on the side of the cylinder that extends it since the rod is taking up space in the other side, it "overpowers" the rod side and lets the cylinder extend-thereby dumping the bucket. So since now both sides of the cylinder are "pressurized", the air pocket can not develop, eliminating the "floppy" bucket syndrome. One other added bonus is that the bucket actually dumps faster due to the higher flow rate required to do all this, that's why it's referred to as "fast dump" sometimes.

    So, now you may be asking “This is cool and all that, but why do I need to know about it?” The answer to that is simple, if you ever try to run a snow plow with two SA (single acting) cylinders, or a cylinder that drives a chute rotator on a snowblower you will soon find out that they won’t work if you push the joystick to far right in the regen mode. The plow won’t work because since both lines are pressurized-both cylinders will be trying to extend at the same time binding everything up. The rotator won’t work because there is no weight pushing the cylinder closed like there is on the loader.
    On most, if not all John Deere tractors there is a “lockout” the limits how far the joystick travels to the right to keep it out of the regen mode.
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    Kenny

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    RandyM's Avatar
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    THANKS Kenny, that was very well explained. I really never know how it worked or what it was for, only sort of. Excellent information. Keep it coming.
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    Had heard talk about "regen", knew it was there but not how it worked. Do now in an easy to understand way. Plan to add some hydraulic circuits on the 3520 in the future so I am trying to get a good, basic overview on the entire big picture first. Thanks! and keep it coming.

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    Captain Hook Kennyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyM View Post
    THANKS Kenny, that was very well explained. I really never know how it worked or what it was for, only sort of. Excellent information. Keep it coming.
    Quote Originally Posted by deputy11 View Post
    Had heard talk about "regen", knew it was there but not how it worked. Do now in an easy to understand way. Plan to add some hydraulic circuits on the 3520 in the future so I am trying to get a good, basic overview on the entire big picture first. Thanks! and keep it coming.
    Thanks guys...I am taking request's for more articles.
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    Kenny

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    Jer
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    How about a version of my "How to think through adding circuits" that I put on TBN?? Could just cut and paste and edit??.....

    How to add worklights??

    How about a glossary of terms and definitions??

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    Kenny,
    On my 445 I have the scv's for a loader. I use them for my snow blower and one of the levers is also used for the deck lifting. When I put the snow blower on, the up and down for the snow blower works very fast. The chute rotation is slow for a bit, then its fast. It been a while since I had the snow blower on, but I remember turning off the deck hydraulics, but that only helps a little. Does that slowness have to do with the regen cycle? How can I stop it on that model? Thank you!



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    Captain Hook Kennyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    Kenny,
    On my 445 I have the scv's for a loader. I use them for my snow blower and one of the levers is also used for the deck lifting. When I put the snow blower on, the up and down for the snow blower works very fast. The chute rotation is slow for a bit, then its fast. It been a while since I had the snow blower on, but I remember turning off the deck hydraulics, but that only helps a little. Does that slowness have to do with the regen cycle? How can I stop it on that model? Thank you!
    I don't think that valve has regen...the operation of the chute from slow to faster is probably the cable that wraps the chute binding up.
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    Kenny

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    It does it both ways and consistent as all get out. I also check and lube the cables. My guess was that the hydo deck lift was not shutting off completely and it was powering that. When that was extended or contracted compeltely the chute moved at full speed? Maybe I have a bad valve to shut off the deck?



    Brian

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    I do appreciate that the Regen Function description above is being given in Lay terms, however; I would like to point out a few general errors in the description itself.

    - There is no 'Air Pocket'. Without the necessary volume of fluid to fill the cylinder base end, the huge pressure drop causes a void to form, which is due to the pressure in the cylinder being below the hydraulic fluid's Vapour pressure. The fluid is stretched to fill the volume, resulting in vaporization. Also known as cylinder cavitation. "Air" can only enter the cylinder if there is a place of entry in the line conductors, etc, or if the pump is being aerated.

    - Typically John Deere does not send high pressure pump oil to 'both sides' of the cylinder. They more often have a regen spool position and/or pilot operated valve that triggers regen, that connects pump outlet to cylinder base end, and reroutes rod end to base end with an orifice and a check valve, instead of allowing rod-oil to return to tank. The resulting pressure drop at the base end causes the oil from the rod end, and the pump outlet to go to the cylinder base end.

    That is to say, "Regenerative Oil" from the Rod end, and "Supply Oil" from the Pump are both flowing in to the cylinder base (head) end increasing cylinder speed and preventing cavitation.

    The whole spiel about volumes, overpowering, both sides being "pressurized" etc, is categorically incorrect.

    The point to remember is, that High Pressure always moves towards low pressure.

    I've attached a Schematic from Deere to provide proof.
    Click image for larger version.

Name:	Deere Cylinder Regen.jpg
Views:	119
Size:	45.8 KB
ID:	73185

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    Quote Originally Posted by JDforestry View Post
    I do appreciate that the Regen Function description above is being given in Lay terms, however; I would like to point out a few general errors in the description itself.

    - There is no 'Air Pocket'. Without the necessary volume of fluid to fill the cylinder base end, the huge pressure drop causes a void to form, which is due to the pressure in the cylinder being below the hydraulic fluid's Vapour pressure. The fluid is stretched to fill the volume, resulting in vaporization. Also known as cylinder cavitation. "Air" can only enter the cylinder if there is a place of entry in the line conductors, etc, or if the pump is being aerated.

    - Typically John Deere does not send high pressure pump oil to 'both sides' of the cylinder. They more often have a regen spool position and/or pilot operated valve that triggers regen, that connects pump outlet to cylinder base end, and reroutes rod end to base end with an orifice and a check valve, instead of allowing rod-oil to return to tank. The resulting pressure drop at the base end causes the oil from the rod end, and the pump outlet to go to the cylinder base end.

    That is to say, "Regenerative Oil" from the Rod end, and "Supply Oil" from the Pump are both flowing in to the cylinder base (head) end increasing cylinder speed and preventing cavitation.

    The whole spiel about volumes, overpowering, both sides being "pressurized" etc, is categorically incorrect.

    The point to remember is, that High Pressure always moves towards low pressure.

    I've attached a Schematic from Deere to provide proof.
    Click image for larger version.

Name:	Deere Cylinder Regen.jpg
Views:	119
Size:	45.8 KB
ID:	73185
    If you look at the schematic of a small John Deere tractor, it is quite a bit different than the schematic that you posted.
    They really do just put pump oil directly to both sides of the cylinder in the regen position...no orifices, no check valves.
    They are not near as fancy as the bigger equipment.
    So it really is as the OP stated. The same pressure is applied to both sides, and due to the larger area of the cap end, it overpowers the rod end and the cylinder extends. The fluid is regenerated from the rod end to the cap end back at the valve.
    I have many years of experience with the more complex industrial hydraulics where there is a regen valve right on the cylinder so the fluid can go directly from the rod end to the cap end without having to go back through the SCV, they also had counterbalance valves for a more controlled regen because there was large amounts of mass working with gravity.
    Last edited by arlen; 10-25-2015 at 09:56 AM.
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