X585 another weight question
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    sennister's Avatar
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    X585 another weight question

    So I have a X585 that is going to be dedicated FEL machine for me. As mentioned in my sig a few years back we added a CTC FEL to the machine. For the most part this is used around the yard doing various tasks from turning the compost pile (mainly leaves and grass from fall/spring cleanup), spreading dirt and other things. Initially we were disappointed in it. If I had a full bucket of dirt it wouldn't lift it.

    After doing some research on other forums we discovered the process of re-shimming the Implement Pressure Relief Valve. Long story short the same K92 Tuff Torq transaxle that is used on the X585 and other JD machines is also used by other tractor manufacturers. Each company sets them up as they choose. JD is on the lower end of the PSI rating for the relief where others are fine with running higher values. From information posted from an engineer at the company they felt setting could be pushed to 1500psi without issue. I re-shimmed the valve and went from an initial reading of about 900PSI to 1175PSI. Now the machine will lift a bucket of dirt. I also found it getting really light on the rear wheels. Needed more weight in the back to run this safely now.

    I have a 3pt Hitch, the Harbor Freight Quick Hitch and Heavy Hitch. I normally would take off the 3pt hitch when mowing as it is in the way and I can't have it on when collecting leaves. So this meant I wanted to focus on weight on the rear axle. I looked at wheel weights and fluid. Went the washer fluid route and did about 12 gallons in each rear wheel. I figure that is about 200# total. This has worked pretty well. It is pretty rare that I notice the rear getting light. Doesn't mean it isn't if I am pushing the loader. Now that I am getting a Z950R for a mower and will keep this as a FEL machine for spring/summer/fall, and snow clearing for winter. I will most likely leave the Quick Hitch and Heavy Hitch on all the time unless running the box grader and that will be there in place of the HH. Because of this suitcase weights are a better option for me now. My Z950R will come with 6 of the weights which I only need when the collection system is in use in the fall. I want to make a bracket for the back of the Z950R to mount 2 of the weights to the back when the collection system is off. So I will have 4 weights for most of the year that I might as well just store on the HH on the X585. That is another 168# behind the axle so there is a multiplier there plus the weight of all the 3pt hitch stuff. Would there be any benefit to add an additional weights. I could get another 4 (total of 10) so that at all times I have 4 weights on the X585 and most of the times an additional 4 from the Z950R when not needed on that machine. I don't plan on removing the fluid from the wheels so is this just overkill? 8 of them would be another 336# + the other stuff + the multiplier of being behind the axle. So would it be worth it to spend another $260 for the additional 4 weights or is it overkill on a machine as small as the X585?


    JD Z950R 60" Deck with DFS Collection System

    JD X585, 54C deck,
    CTC Model X4750 F.E.L - Modified Imp Pressure Relief from 900 to 1175PSI, Power Flow and MC519 cart, 54-inch Quick-Hitch Front Blade, 47-inch Quick-Hitch Snow Blower, 3-pt hitch, HF Quick Hitch, Heavy Hitch, 48" box blade/rear blade, Dethacher, 3pt Sprayer

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    I think you are missing an aspect to this that is pretty significant.

    These machines are designed so that the weight distribution is roughly 60-70% of the total machine weight is on the rear axle and 30-40% is on the front axle.

    By adding a loader you've shifted weight forward. And when lifting something with that loader, you increase that. Pretty much 100% of weight of your loader and anything that is in it is being carried by your front axle. That's a lot of weight on your steering components and front axles that they weren't designed to carry.

    You've counter-acted some of that by loading your rear wheels. But to get back to that 70/30 (or 60/40) ratio you need to add more ballast to the rear to compensate for the weight of a loaded bucket.

    Ballast isn't just about keeping the rear wheels on the ground. It's about taking that weight off of the front axle and loading the weight onto the rear axle.

    I don't know what your loader weighs or what it's lift capacity is but if you can figure those out, Deere's calculations for ballast on the CUTs is almost always just over the maximum lift capacity of the loader. For example, on my 2032R with the H130 loader, the max lift capacity is 1,023 lbs and they recommend total rear ballast of 1,112 lbs.

    From what I can figure out you've got 368 lbs of rear ballast setup currently. If it were me, I'd find a way to figure out how much you can lift with your loader and increase the available ballast to match that. You may not need it on the machine all of the time (you seem to be doing a lot of light lifting with mulch & leaves...) but I'd have it available.
    RandyM, Zebrafive and sennister like this.
    D160 Mower/Bagger.
    2014 2032R tractor/H130 FEL w/Bolt-On Hooks/54" Snow Plow/iMatch Quick-Hitch/County Line 5' Scraper blade/County Line Carry-All/Artillian 42" Forks & QH Adapter/JD Ballast Box/Frontier SB1164 3PH Blower/Leinbach PHD/Wallenstien BX42 Chipper

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    sennister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimR View Post
    I think you are missing an aspect to this that is pretty significant.

    These machines are designed so that the weight distribution is roughly 60-70% of the total machine weight is on the rear axle and 30-40% is on the front axle.

    By adding a loader you've shifted weight forward. And when lifting something with that loader, you increase that. Pretty much 100% of weight of your loader and anything that is in it is being carried by your front axle. That's a lot of weight on your steering components and front axles that they weren't designed to carry.

    You've counter-acted some of that by loading your rear wheels. But to get back to that 70/30 (or 60/40) ratio you need to add more ballast to the rear to compensate for the weight of a loaded bucket.

    Ballast isn't just about keeping the rear wheels on the ground. It's about taking that weight off of the front axle and loading the weight onto the rear axle.

    I don't know what your loader weighs or what it's lift capacity is but if you can figure those out, Deere's calculations for ballast on the CUTs is almost always just over the maximum lift capacity of the loader. For example, on my 2032R with the H130 loader, the max lift capacity is 1,023 lbs and they recommend total rear ballast of 1,112 lbs.

    From what I can figure out you've got 368 lbs of rear ballast setup currently. If it were me, I'd find a way to figure out how much you can lift with your loader and increase the available ballast to match that. You may not need it on the machine all of the time (you seem to be doing a lot of light lifting with mulch & leaves...) but I'd have it available.
    No, I think we are saying the same thing, you are just doing a better job and wording it than me.

    What you covered is kind of the point I was trying to get at. I know lifting the rear wheels is bad as I could snap the front axle or cause premature wear on the components. Not to mention possible loss of control and roll over risk. As I mentioned with just the loader and no weight, once I adjusted the IMP Relief, it would lift the rear wheels off the ground. Initially I put on the 3pt hitch, quick hitch and box grader. This works but is a pain to do since I had to pull the 3pt arms all the time as they are in the way. That is when I added the fluid for about 200# and I am 6'4" 230#. So that is where I am at today.

    Now that I am getting the Ztrak I won't mow with the X585 so I will likely leave the FEL on and the 3pt hitch stuff on the machine. Being I have a HH (I also have the optional cart) it is easy to leave some weights on the HH and put it on or take off as needed. So the question is how much weight should I really have? Lets say it was possible to have 2000# obviously that is way too much for a machine as small as mine. I am at 200# with the wheels and add the 4 weights from the Z950R another 168#. We could probably call it 175# or a little more with the 3pt hitch, QH and HH. I have read that since it is out on a 3pt hitch that there is a multiplier of something like 1.3 because of leverage. So that would make the 168# more like lets say 200# for easy math.

    Here is some info on the loader or at least what I know without emailing them for more info.

    CTC FEL

    They state that the entire package weighs 450#. Some of that weight is going to be the mounting bar that is in the middle of the tractor and some of the weight is there but most is still out front, but it is a starting point. Plus it states it can lift over 400# with the shim kit which I did as mentioned earlier. So worst case lets call that 850#. They recommend at least 200# of counterweight for light duty which I am at with the fluid and roughly double that (400#) with the 3pt hitch stuff and 4 weights. So my question is it worth it to add another 4 suitcase weights to my deal on the Z950R so I can leave 4 on the X585 at all times and when not needed on the Z950R I can bump it up to 8 weights which would be a bit over 400# on the rear plus 200# in the wheels? If I need to get the ballast to 850# then I am barely there with the 200# in the tires, the 400# or so in the suitcase weights and me in the seat. Like I mentioned at some point though, it is just weight that isn't helping which will just tear up the yard more as I get to 80/20 or 90/10. The hard part are the variables. You don't know how heavy the stuff is that I am lifting and I am not sure either. That is why I was wondering how it should be calculated as to how much is enough.

    The heaviest thing I lift are going to be logs when I cut down a tree. Not very often. If it is pine I cut into large sections and haul down to the burn pit. If Ash or Maple I cut into firewood. If it is too heavy I cut them shorter. More commonly I am moving a bucket load of dirt from the compost pile to use around the yard. How heavy would a load of black dirt be in a 48" bucket? I would imagine it depends on how wet it is. This is going to be mainly in the spring and summer when I could have the weight from the Z950R on the tractor. I won't be collecting anything then on that machine so the collection system and the weights will not be on it. When I would need the weights back on the mower is the fall and initial spring cleanup but then I am dealing with leaves and light loads in the bucket as I push the leaves from where I dump into a pile to begin composting.

    I do understand that there is more to it than the rear feeling light. That is a sign that you are way underweight with ballast. But the only thing I have to go on. So we are saying the same thing you just worded it better.


    JD Z950R 60" Deck with DFS Collection System

    JD X585, 54C deck,
    CTC Model X4750 F.E.L - Modified Imp Pressure Relief from 900 to 1175PSI, Power Flow and MC519 cart, 54-inch Quick-Hitch Front Blade, 47-inch Quick-Hitch Snow Blower, 3-pt hitch, HF Quick Hitch, Heavy Hitch, 48" box blade/rear blade, Dethacher, 3pt Sprayer

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    Quote Originally Posted by sennister View Post
    I have read that since it is out on a 3pt hitch that there is a multiplier of something like 1.3 because of leverage. So that would make the 168# more like lets say 200# for easy math.
    I'd ignore this. Yes, the weight is hanging off the 3pt and there probably is some theoretical multiplier, But if you are going to get that deep, your loader is also hanging off your front end acting as a lever so it has a multiplier too and you aren't compensating for that. I just ignore the multiplier factor on both ends and pray they nullify each other.

    Here is some info on the loader or at least what I know without emailing them for more info.

    CTC FEL

    They state that the entire package weighs 450#. Some of that weight is going to be the mounting bar that is in the middle of the tractor and some of the weight is there but most is still out front, but it is a starting point. Plus it states it can lift over 400# with the shim kit which I did as mentioned earlier. So worst case lets call that 850#.
    If 850 lbs is your worst case scenario then I'd make sure I have the ability to load 850 lbs of ballast and I wouldn't use the operator weight in any calculations.

    You have ~200 lbs in your fluid-filled tires.
    Your Harbor Freight Quick Hitch is listed at 61 lbs
    A Cat 0 Heavy Hitch is ~35 lbs
    You have 4 42lb suitcase weights for 168 lbs.

    So right now you have ~464 lbs of ballast. That's probably just over what you should have if you are running around with the loader empty. (I'd drop one or two 42# weights myself...)

    I don't know what the carrying capacity (volume) of your bucket is but you can find estimates of how much "stuff" weighs. My 53" materials bucket holds 7.8 cu. ft. and common (dry) topsoil generally weighs about 60 lbs/cu. ft. so I can estimate that a full load of topsoil would be about 480 lbs. You might ask the folks at CTC what the volume of your bucket is so you can do the same sort of estimates.

    Topsoil = 60 lbs/cu ft
    Mulch = 35 lbs/cu ft.
    Sand or gravel = 100 lbs/cu ft.
    Leaves/brush = 20 lbs/cu ft.
    For logs/firewood you can use something like this log weight calculator.

    Multiply those values by how ever many cu. ft. your bucket holds and that should give you a close number to use for the additional amount of ballast you need to add.



    Since you are going to need them at times them IMO, yes, it is absolutely worth it to get the 4 additional suitcase weights with your Z950R.
    Zebrafive likes this.
    D160 Mower/Bagger.
    2014 2032R tractor/H130 FEL w/Bolt-On Hooks/54" Snow Plow/iMatch Quick-Hitch/County Line 5' Scraper blade/County Line Carry-All/Artillian 42" Forks & QH Adapter/JD Ballast Box/Frontier SB1164 3PH Blower/Leinbach PHD/Wallenstien BX42 Chipper

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    sennister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimR View Post
    I'd ignore this. Yes, the weight is hanging off the 3pt and there probably is some theoretical multiplier, But if you are going to get that deep, your loader is also hanging off your front end acting as a lever so it has a multiplier too and you aren't compensating for that. I just ignore the multiplier factor on both ends and pray they nullify each other.
    True enough it is hanging off each side.

    If 850 lbs is your worst case scenario then I'd make sure I have the ability to load 850 lbs of ballast and I wouldn't use the operator weight in any calculations.

    You have ~200 lbs in your fluid-filled tires.
    Your Harbor Freight Quick Hitch is listed at 61 lbs
    A Cat 0 Heavy Hitch is ~35 lbs
    You have 4 42lb suitcase weights for 168 lbs.

    So right now you have ~464 lbs of ballast. That's probably just over what you should have if you are running around with the loader empty. (I'd drop one or two 42# weights myself...)

    I don't know what the carrying capacity (volume) of your bucket is but you can find estimates of how much "stuff" weighs. My 53" materials bucket holds 7.8 cu. ft. and common (dry) topsoil generally weighs about 60 lbs/cu. ft. so I can estimate that a full load of topsoil would be about 480 lbs. You might ask the folks at CTC what the volume of your bucket is so you can do the same sort of estimates.

    Topsoil = 60 lbs/cu ft
    Mulch = 35 lbs/cu ft.
    Sand or gravel = 100 lbs/cu ft.
    Leaves/brush = 20 lbs/cu ft.
    For logs/firewood you can use something like this log weight calculator.

    Multiply those values by how ever many cu. ft. your bucket holds and that should give you a close number to use for the additional amount of ballast you need to add.



    Since you are going to need them at times them IMO, yes, it is absolutely worth it to get the 4 additional suitcase weights with your Z950R.
    The all the 3pt stuff on my X585 is CAT1. Might add a pound or two but not a huge difference. The X585 is an early 2002 model and after the number restructure in 2005 or whenever they did that it is not the same as the current X5XX. Size wise it is more in line with the current X7XX machines.

    What this has me thinking is that based on your calculations even with 8 suitcase weights and fluid in the tires, I am still underweight in a worst case scenario. How the heck do they do it on bigger machines that can lift more? You mentioned what 1000# with yours. Granted your tires are bigger so you can have more fluid and/or wheel weights. A HH for your machine holds the same 8 weights that mine does. I am pretty sure we both use Cat 1. Yeah I can still add wheel weights but at this point I am almost thinking I am better off getting a Cat 1 ballast box. I can still use the HH with the 4 weights for lighter stuff as needed. I am looking at about $260 for the 4 additional weights. That is in the ball park of what a ballast box (empty) would run me. With the quick hitch it isn't a big deal to drop the HH and pick up the BB and do heavy work. I also saw were some people insert some PVC pipe when they fill them with cement. Then you can use that for a holder for rakes/shovels and other tools. That would be kind of nice when I am out doing dirt stuff.
    Last edited by sennister; 01-05-2016 at 04:04 PM.


    JD Z950R 60" Deck with DFS Collection System

    JD X585, 54C deck,
    CTC Model X4750 F.E.L - Modified Imp Pressure Relief from 900 to 1175PSI, Power Flow and MC519 cart, 54-inch Quick-Hitch Front Blade, 47-inch Quick-Hitch Snow Blower, 3-pt hitch, HF Quick Hitch, Heavy Hitch, 48" box blade/rear blade, Dethacher, 3pt Sprayer

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    Quote Originally Posted by sennister View Post
    The all the 3pt stuff on my X585 is CAT1. Might add a pound or two but not a huge difference.

    I think the Cat 1 HH is about 20-25 lbs heavier. Everything else would be the same.

    What this has me thinking is that based on your calculations even with 8 suitcase weights and fluid in the tires, I am still underweight in a worst case scenario. How the heck do they do it on bigger machines that can lift more? You mentioned what 1000# with yours. Granted your tires are bigger so you can have more fluid and/or wheel weights.

    It ain't easy! I have loaded rear tires and even with that, Deere says I'm supposed to have another 770 lbs of ballast. So I have my iMatch + a ballast box + 400 lbs of pea gravel in the box. That's roughly 550lbs all together. I dropped a steel pipe into the box as I filled it and I can stack 50 lb free weights (which I picked up for free off of Craigslist) for more weight if/when I need it. I usually just run around with the ballast box on.
    D160 Mower/Bagger.
    2014 2032R tractor/H130 FEL w/Bolt-On Hooks/54" Snow Plow/iMatch Quick-Hitch/County Line 5' Scraper blade/County Line Carry-All/Artillian 42" Forks & QH Adapter/JD Ballast Box/Frontier SB1164 3PH Blower/Leinbach PHD/Wallenstien BX42 Chipper

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