Trenching agi pipe advice with the 1025R
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 11
Like Tree38Likes

Thread: Trenching agi pipe advice with the 1025R

  1. Top | #1

    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Last Online
    Today @ 01:26 AM
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    45
    Thanks
    15
    Thanked 15 Times in 9 Posts

    Trenching agi pipe advice with the 1025R

    Hi,

    I've just had a new patio built. Unfortunately the landscaping done by the company's recommended concretor wasn't any good, and I've got water pooling about the side of the slab which is 12m long. We want to drive the car under the patio, so I've had to stack some wood to drive in as the shaping of the bank isn't any chop either. I'm not interested in getting them back as they did a crap job, so I'm going to sort it myself.

    Anyway, I need to look at solutions. I was originally thinking channel and grate, but the slab directly adjoins a bank, and there's water not only on the surface, but beneath the ground that I feel I need to address as it will be getting under the slab. I'd then have to concrete that in, and although the plastic stuff is cheap, prefab concrete channel and grate is over $5k for 12m's. That said, I'm now thinking a 100mm socked and slotted agi pipe gravel drain is the way to go, as it would cost much less and I wouldn't have to concrete it in. I think the bank need be shaped back with the loader a bit to make it less steep so I can drive the car on, and I'll put some black matting on it to stabilise the dirt to stop it sliding down into the drain. I might also get a prefab concrete channel and grate for the section the car will drive over and concrete it in, or use a culvert.

    My question is now about how to do it. I've attached a photograph so you can see the situation.

    I thought I could either:-

    1. Scoop out dirt with the backhoe parked at a right angle to the trench and then try and neaten the cut with the loader bucket. I've got a 16" backhoe bucket and an 8", but this would a long time and the result mightn't be very tidy. I'd like a neat trench if I can.
    2. Just try and scoop it out with the loader. This might work as the ground is soft muddy and soft, but I can see I'll have to do some pick and shovel work as I might not be able to get close enough to the slab.
    3. Try and use the backhoe along the side of the concrete with half the tractor on the slab and the other side on the bank. My main concern with this is how I would deploy the stabilisers on the bank, and slab. The ground is very soft, so perhaps I wouldn't need to fully take the weight of the tractor with the stabilisers, not sure. I think this would be the neatest and quickest way. I could probably put something under the stabiliser on the slab so it didn't damage the concrete.

    I thought I would dig the trench down about 1ft alongside the slab so I could capture the ground water and surface water beneath the level of the slab, and then fill the trench with rock to the level of the slab. I thought I'd make the trench about 1.5ft wide. I'm not sure if I should just put two agi pipes in the trench or if one is enough.

    I'm just a bit concerned about the stability of the tractor using option 3, but it would probably be the best way and do the neatest job in the quickest time. I think the other options might give me mixed results or require more pick and shovel work to make it tidy.

    I thought I'd put a pit drain with a grate on top at either end so I can clean out the agi pipe. From that pit drain I thought I'd run out under the fence into the paddock with solid 100mm pipe, which will be a 22m run. Fortunately I've got plenty of fall one I get past the slab I slab so I can put the agi pipe and solid pipe in at whatever depth I need to get enough fall.

    I really didn't want to pay for someone to come in and do the work, as I know a digger would just run alongside the slab and sort it out, but I've got a tractor to use and I'm keen to get more seat time.

    I'd appreciate any input as to the way to go. I'm sure there's some collective wisdom here I can tap in on.

    Thanks very much.

    regards,

    craby
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Slab picture.jpg  
    Gizmo2, Robnik and Yank like this.

  2. Remove Advertisements
    GreenTractorTalk.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. Top | #2
    rrbattani's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Last Online
    Yesterday @ 06:25 PM
    Location
    Runnells, IA
    Posts
    21
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
    I could be wrong, as it is hard to judge by just a picture, but it appears if you just used some good topsoil and filled to the top of the slab, and sloped it out4 feet or so, that the water problem could go away.
    12' 1026R I-Match, Ballast box, 53" auto connect FEL, 60" auto connect MMM deck, 54" snow blower (Member since 9/2011, but deleted my old account after the data breach)

  4. Top | #3
    firemachine69's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Last Online
    06-25-2019 @ 10:34 PM
    Location
    Northern Ontario
    Posts
    697
    Thanks
    15
    Thanked 40 Times in 37 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by rrbattani View Post
    I could be wrong, as it is hard to judge by just a picture, but it appears if you just used some good topsoil and filled to the top of the slab, and sloped it out4 feet or so, that the water problem could go away.



    Topsoil will probably wash away.

    Get some A gravel, quarry A (AKA "O gravel") preferably, pack it down with the biggest tamper you can get to your place (I recommend a 1-ton roller, if possible), sloping away from the slab.
    PJR832 likes this.
    JD 2520 MCUT (SOLD)

    Looking for a 3xx or 4xx restoration project (at a good price)

  5. Remove Advertisements
    GreenTractorTalk.com
    Advertisements
     

  6. Top | #4
    OxPath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Last Online
    Today @ 08:04 AM
    Location
    Central New York
    Posts
    3,469
    Thanks
    786
    Thanked 988 Times in 612 Posts
    The drain you describe is commonly known as a French Drain in the US.

    I'm certainly no expert, but I've watched and picked the mind of several small excavator owners who install drains for a living, and had success with two that I've installed.

    First off, I'd stay several feet away from the slab and keep all the tractor wheels on the grass. You don't want to excavate close to, and undermine your slab as you'll never get the fill compacted back under the slab. Once you've built your drain, the finish grade from the slab can be sloped towards the drain as it looks like you have plenty of slope with which to work.

    I'd install a single slotted and socked pipe laid in the center of the excavation on a 2-4 inch base of gravel. By filling around the drain pipe with stone on both sides and for 8-10 inches above the pipe, you create somewhat of a support for the fill (topsoil) placed over the drain pipe. In other words, the stone at the sides of the pipe will bridge much of the weight passing over the drain pipe.

    I install landscape fabric on top of the stone to prevent infiltration of the finish topsoil. I've seen others lay fabric in the excavation prior to laying the drain pipe and stone and then folding the fabric over the top of the stone. This always seemed excessive to me, especially with a socked drain pipe, but I understand the principle. My fear would be of the landscape fabric becoming clogged and impermeable from fine particles, whereas stone will filter out much of the fines before reaching the sock around the slotted drain pipe. On the other-hand, the landscape fabric wrapped around the entire excavation exposes a lot of surface area and maybe the chances of it becoming clogged is less than that of the sock becoming clogged.

    The area where you are driving the car is crying for a gravel / hard base. I'd remove the soil down to at least the level of the stone covering the drain pipe and completely fill the excavation with stone and grade it out with just a minimal pitch from the slab to the far slope.

    I think any ground water coming from beneath the slab would eventually find its way to your primary drain, even with the drain located 2-3 feet away from the slab. It depends on the consistency of your soil. If your ground water situation is really bad, you could carefully trench some lateral drains from the main drain to the edge of the slab. I wouldn't install drain pipe and would instead, fill the laterals with gravel to provide a path to the main drain. You wouldn't have to install the laterals right away. The primary drain could be given a chance to prove itself and if you still have standing water that you suspect is from under the slab, you could then install laterals, being careful not to disturb the slab's base.

    There's a lot of information out there on French Drains, much of it contradictory. Drains aren't an exact science and the only invariable is that water will always flow downward: you just need to build the path. I'm sure you'll come up with something that will suite your situation. Worst case is your drain doesn't work and you have to start over or change methods, but fortunately, it's not a permanent structure and the materials are all reusable.

    If you do eventually run the drain across the driveway and to daylight, it wouldn't hurt to connect your downspout to the non-perforated drain pipe and move that roof water away from the slab. With or without another downspout at the other end of the slab, that could be the origin of a great deal of your water around the slab.

    A crude layout for a French Drain (yellow) and finished grade (white).

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	InkedSlab picture_LI.jpg 
Views:	212 
Size:	578.4 KB 
ID:	576465
    Gizmo2, rtgt, W9GFO and 9 others like this.
    - Phil -
    LT160 Garden Tractor
    3320 eHydro - 300CX Loader - 72" HLA SnowPusher 2500 - TSC Post Hole Digger - BB2172 Box Blade
    John Deere 26G Compact Excavator - 18" HD bucket - 30" ditching bucket - PA15B 12" planetary drive auger
    Ken's Bolt On Grab Hooks - Artillian 42" Forks - Edge Tamers

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to OxPath For This Useful Post:

    craby (03-23-2018)

  8. Top | #5

    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Last Online
    Today @ 01:26 AM
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    45
    Thanks
    15
    Thanked 15 Times in 9 Posts
    Thanks very much for your info everyone.

    Oxpath, excellent advice. I was going to dig right to the edge of the slab but I can see now the problem it would have caused, so I'm glad I asked first. In relation to the pipes on the patio, they are connected underground to the house storm water system which goes into the water tanks. I had a drainer come and inspect it all before the slab was laid and it wasn't leaking, so I think it's more likely the water pooling there after it comes down the bank and can't get away as it only pools when there is heavy rain. It eventually soaks in, and I'm assuming it's just going into the ground under the slab so I'm keen to stop that.

    I've had a spoon drain sliced into the bank about 15m away from the patio, which diverts some of the water away instead of coming down to the patio. That said, the works the concretor's did just resulted in silt moving from the bank down into the drainage they shaped alongside the slab, and it became useless quite quickly.

    I just went had a look, and I can definitely come out from the slab by a good half a metre at least for the trench. I'll have to do some shaping at the other end as that's where the spoon drain come in, but the tractor will do it.

    I was thinking of making the trench just one 16" bucket wide. Would you agree with that trench size? And what do you think about putting a silt trap box drain at each end?

    Thanks again.

    regards,

    craby
    Herminator and PJR832 like this.

  9. Top | #6

    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Last Online
    Today @ 10:47 PM
    Location
    Near Roa. VA
    Posts
    3,575
    Thanks
    43
    Thanked 437 Times in 337 Posts
    We just did my daughters house,, the "trench" is more like 10 meters from the house,,,



    A LOT of dirt was removed,,,

    keane, em14, Herminator and 2 others like this.
    Some of the tractors include JD 4105, JD 855, JD 650,,,, and,,, the IH 584 4WD
    My favorite attachment is the homemade landplane,,, EVERYONE needs one of those!!

  10. Top | #7
    OxPath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Last Online
    Today @ 08:04 AM
    Location
    Central New York
    Posts
    3,469
    Thanks
    786
    Thanked 988 Times in 612 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by craby View Post
    ... I was thinking of making the trench just one 16" bucket wide. Would you agree with that trench size? And what do you think about putting a silt trap box drain at each end? ...
    18" was my target with the drains I put in. I didn't worry about a slit trap and I wouldn't think a sock would allow much silt to enter the slotted drain pipe, but I can't imagine it would hurt anything to put one in, maybe at the transition from slotted pipe to solid pipe. I personally wouldn't install one if I was doing your job.

    It's more important to maintain at least a 1% pitch on the drain, which is sufficient to move the water and any particles that pass the sock. That equates to 1 inch in 8 feet in the US and I think the metric equivalent would be 10mm / m. I suppose you could bring a riser up at the shallow end of the drain and run a hose through it once in a while to flush sediment if that's a concern. However, with a backhoe at your disposal you can easily access the drain at any time, so why complicate a simple and proven method until actually, if ever, found necessary.
    rtgt and PJR832 like this.
    - Phil -
    LT160 Garden Tractor
    3320 eHydro - 300CX Loader - 72" HLA SnowPusher 2500 - TSC Post Hole Digger - BB2172 Box Blade
    John Deere 26G Compact Excavator - 18" HD bucket - 30" ditching bucket - PA15B 12" planetary drive auger
    Ken's Bolt On Grab Hooks - Artillian 42" Forks - Edge Tamers

  11. Top | #8

    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Last Online
    Today @ 01:26 AM
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    45
    Thanks
    15
    Thanked 15 Times in 9 Posts
    Thanks Oxpath,

    I've got some time off coming up next month so I'll start planning it out. The local landscape place has 20mm drainage gravel and I can get the socked pipe no problems. I think I'll go with a silt trap as you say at the point I go from agi pipe to solid. At least then I can put a hose in it if need be from time to time. I will definitely need to shape the bank a bit more to make it less steep and discourage dirt coming into the gravel, but the tractor will do that no problems.

    But most importantly, it'll be good to get some more seat time, and use the backhoe again as I haven't had it on for ages.

    I'll upload some photo's of the work so you can see how I go.

    Thanks again.

    regards,

    craby
    OxPath likes this.

  12. Top | #9

    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Last Online
    Today @ 01:26 AM
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    45
    Thanks
    15
    Thanked 15 Times in 9 Posts

    Job done

    Hello,

    I thought I'd give an update on how this went. The job is done now bar a bit of tidying up around the place, and it's gone quite well. It took me 3 full days to finish which was the most seat time I've had for yonks. I've attached some photo's so you can see how it went.

    Last week I had concrete laid around the house under the verandahs so I asked the bobcat driver to push through the bank to a bobcat blade width (I think it was 1.7m), to save me having to scrape it out with the 1025R. The soil is super compacted clay and a nightmare to dig e.g. the sort of clay that you can pound a pick into but you can't dig anything out.

    Anyway, he pushed the path through for me alongside the patio so I had a flat area to drive the 1025R, and he shaped the bank a bit which was a big help.

    I chucked the backhoe on and dug the trench out with the 16" bucket. I had to go a little bit wider from the slab than I originally intended as I didn't want to put the bucket on the patio slab, so I came out 60cm for the trench. I didn't have to worry about the ground coming out from the under the slab as the clay was so thick it was pretty rough going. The trench was 18m long and I dug it down to 50cm deep below the base of the patio slab. I used 20mm drainage gravel and ran a 100mm socked and slotted drainage pipe along the trench, starting with a stormwater box at the high end so I can flush it out as required. To stop the agi pipe being crushed I put it through two 2.5m sections of blue brute heavy PVC pipe as we will be driving over the drain to put the cars under the patio. The trench was shaped on either side per Oxpath's suggestion, and I got a sufficient amount of fall on the agi pipe.

    I then had to dig another 25m trench with the 8 inch bucket to lay 100mm PVC pipe to connect onto the 100mm agi pipe, to drain the water from the trench and out of the yard. Unfortunately the pipe was delivered a bit bent, but I was able to straighten it out in the trench. There's a heap of fall on it anyway. I took it out under the fence into the paddock, and used the remaining 1m length of blue brute to protect the pipe end from the cattle, and banked up the dirt over the top to make a pipe bunker type of arrangement. It's settled fairly flat but I'll wait a bit to see how it goes after some rain before I top dress to finish it off.

    I then back filled the agi drain totally with gravel and filled in the rest of the ditch with the remaining gravel so we could drive our cars straight under the patio. To stop the bank eroding into the trench, I put coir mat down along the trench, and we've since planted a fast growing ground cover into the mat to start covering it in and to secure the bank. It'll totally cover the mat and will hold the ground no problems at all.

    Unfortunately the clay was so thick I had to do a lot of tidying up as it clogged up my spoon drain that I cut to divert water away from the patio. Now it's repaired it's bigger and better though, and will work a treat.

    The only thing I have to sort out is the dirt section we have to drive over between the spoon drain and the gravel. I'm thinking of either putting road base down there or maybe some of that geohex panelling that I can scrape the remaining gravel into. It's winter here now so there won't be any rain for awhile, so I'll ponder it a bit I think. I'll probably just scrape it out and lay geohex and rake that remaining gravel into the cells and be done with it. They're only $15 a panel for 1m x .5m, so it'll only be a couple of hundred to finish it off.

    Anyway, thanks a bunch everyone for your suggestions. The 1025R worked like an absolute trooper non-stop for 3 days from dawn to dusk. Not only did it dig all the trenches and move all the rock and dirt, I banked all the clay I dug out of the agi pipe trench around the house to build it up to the slab height, laid 10m3 of topsoil over the top of that, and backfilled and tidied up the yard (except all that gravel I have to sort out). Better than doing it by hand that's for sure.

    Now I just have to wait for some rain to make sure it all works!

    regards,

    craby


    Attachment 635652


    Attachment 635650Attachment 635650Attachment 635650Attachment 635650Attachment 635650
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DSC09152.jpg   DSC09218.jpg   DSC09225.jpg   DSC09233.jpg   DSC09264.jpg  

    DSC09270.jpg   DSC09236.jpg  
    Last edited by craby; 06-24-2018 at 03:46 AM.
    Kennyd, Bubber, IndianaJim and 8 others like this.

  13. Top | #10

    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Last Online
    09-09-2019 @ 07:46 AM
    Location
    Prince William County, VA
    Posts
    195
    Thanks
    27
    Thanked 9 Times in 7 Posts

    Good advice

    I'm getting ready to do a similar job. This is helpful. You also have some great views from your place. Might be another good thread.

  14. Remove Advertisements
    GreenTractorTalk.com
    Advertisements
     

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •