Rubbery bolt????
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    mjncad's Avatar
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    Rubbery bolt????

    In the gear grinder thread I mentioned I had to replace the left front tire on my 2WD X754 due to a sidewall puncture.

    OK; there is only one bolt holding the front wheels on 2WD models, and they are torqued to 54 lb/ft. I can get the bolt torqued to 40 lb/ft with any value above that never achieving the set value on my torque wrench. It feels like the bolt wants to break; so I back off. I check the right front wheel bolt that has never been disturbed since I bought the machine new, and it clicks just fine at 54 lb/ft per the shop manual.

    The shop manual makes no mention of replacing the bolt if it was removed with a new one. In other words, WTF?

    I'll probably just get a new bolt and call it good.
    I have more ideas than ambition.


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    MeagerHair's Avatar
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    Get a new bolt.

    A bolt is like a spring.

    When I had assembly at an engine factory that was a two hour class the engineers taught to new hires and they had some cool teaching aids to demonstrate.

    Basically you stretch a bolt each time you tighten it. We actually measured 2 times a shift every critical fastener going on before and after installation. We measured with ultrasound. If the bolt did not elongate in the proper range we had bad bolts.

    We torqued allot to yield. The bolt stretches to a point and plateaus. (yield). If you go past that it becomes overly stretchy (rubbery) until it breaks. Each time you tighten and loosen a bolt it's yield is reduced. Once a bolt is over yield or used too many times it’s scrap.

    A single bolt holding a wheel sould have a max number of uses but it may be high enough it’s not statistically likely you would remove the wheel enough times to ruin the bolt in it’s life.

    Also there are just bad bolts, they harden them in big baskets and they can clump if the process is not properly followed.

    Some bolts have special coatings. We had turbo bolts that were machined inconclusive coated in pure copper and then top coat of 99.7% pure silver. $45 dollars a bolt. You ran 4 in at once, if a torque gun errored during run down all 4 were scrap since it scrapes the silver off as you run them in and out.
    Last edited by MeagerHair; 07-29-2018 at 05:35 AM.
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    MJ, Meager is 110% correct. A bolt NEEDS to be stretched in order to hold. How much "stretch" is determined by the torque applied.

    You could have one of several situations here. Hopefully, the threads in the axle are still good, otherwise a heli-coil or thread-sert is needed. I'm betting the bolt is bad. Did a previous owner replace it with a "softer" bolt...check the bolt on the other wheel for markings. The bolt may have been over tightened by a previous owner also.

    Bottom line is to get a new bolt of the SAME grade as the other wheel. As a side note, are you lubing the threads AND under the head before torquing? This is critical as a dry bolt requires 10-15% more torque to get the same "stretch" on the bolt.

    BTW, VERY smart move on your part to stop torquing and remove the bolt. Bob
    Last edited by rwmeyer; 07-29-2018 at 12:52 PM.
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    IndianaJim's Avatar
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    We may all be saying the same thing a bit differently, but my take is as follows.
    Graded bolts have a yield strength, which is the point at which deformation occurs that it cannot recover from, or the point at which damage occurs to the fastener. If its a graded bolt, its definitely NOT a torque to yield bolt. You can tell by the marks on the head.

    Several systems these days are designed with "TTY" (torque to yield) bolts. Now, I could take some of the above to mean that all bolts are in the TTY category, but I disagree.

    If that was the case on all bolts, there would be an AWFUL lot of wheels falling off going down the highway.
    Heck, there would be a whole lot of everything falling apart everywhere if that were the case.
    My VW has 335,000 miles on it. Any idea how many times the wheels have been off of that thing in that amount of time? If all bolts wore out from stretching every time, my wheels would have fallen right the heck off about 150,000 miles ago.

    Its all in how the engineers designed the parts, and the specs they wanted. If its truly a torque to yield bolt, youd know it, because it would be mentioned in the manual, and on JDParts.
    The torque spec also isnt just a number. It will be a number, then so many degrees past, or something similar. Its never a one step tightening spec.

    There is certainly nothing wrong with replacing it, but Id be sure it wasnt a problem in the assembly that caused the issue, and that my torque wrench had been recently calibrated (something that almost no one does with torque wrenches in home shops), or have a type that doesnt require calibration, though those are few and far between.

    See, having an engineering background, I like to know a lot about why things are the way they are. When I bought my VW some years back, I ran into all sorts of TTY bolts on that thing. I got to looking into it a bit. Well, maybe more than a bit. Anyway, the point is, they are EVERYWHERE on European cars. They also are NOT lots of places on those same cars. They have their uses, but not every bolt will break simply from normal use and re-use. I can say too that not a single one of them has marks on the heads (thats why I mentioned above about the whole graded bolt markings thing).

    Anyway, I hope you get it sorted out.
    Last edited by IndianaJim; 07-29-2018 at 06:06 PM.
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    mjncad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rwmeyer View Post
    You could have one of several situations here. Hopefully, the threads in the axle are still good, otherwise a heli-coil or thread-sert is needed. I'm betting the bolt is bad. Did a previous owner replace it with a "softer" bolt...check the bolt on the other wheel for markings. The bolt may have been over tightened by a previous owner also.

    Bottom line is to get a new bolt of the SAME grade as the other wheel. As a side note, are you lubing the threads AND under the head before torquing? This is critical as a dry bolt requires 10-15% more torque to get the same "stretch" on the bolt.

    BTW, VERY smart move on your part to stop torquing and remove the bolt. Bob
    I'm the original owner. Maybe Deere's torque wrenches were out of whack the day the wheels were put on. Once in a while I do something smart as the last thing I want to do is screw up the front axle.

    Quote Originally Posted by IndianaJim View Post
    There is certainly nothing wrong with replacing it, but Id be sure it wasnt a problem in the assembly that caused the issue, and that my torque wrench had been recently calibrated (something that almost no one does with torque wrenches in home shops), or have a type that doesnt require calibration, though those are few and far between.

    Anyway, I hope you get it sorted out.
    My click type torque wrench has never been calibrated, and it's at least 40-years old. I don't use it often, nor have I abused it. I can't even tell you what brand it is without running out to the garage. It was what I could afford at the time that wasn't a beam or dial type that's a pain in the butt to read. Given its age, I consider it a get it in the ballpark type of tool. I also reset it to the lowest value when I'm done.

    I've just never had a bolt do this after just one use that I can recall. I'll just get a new one the next time I head into town.

    Thanks gents.
    I have more ideas than ambition.


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    Watching to see what you find. Bad bolt? Or bad threads in the spindle? Please post when you find out.
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    I understand the TTY bolts and all that but I think that like most engineers they are over thinking this.

    I'd pull it out, clean both the bolt and the tapped hole, look the threads over. Assuming you can't see any issues I'd then clean the hub and the mounting surface, inspect and reinstall. Lube up the tapped hole and the bolt and Torque the bolt in to spec. If the bolt breaks which I'd doubt it will or the tapped hole strips (most likely) then look at fixing tapped hole. If your tapped hole is bad its bad, nothing can fix it now. Reassembling the works you'll find out whats what.
    Last edited by klunker; 07-30-2018 at 09:46 AM.
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    mjncad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zebrafive View Post
    Watching to see what you find. Bad bolt? Or bad threads in the spindle? Please post when you find out.
    I'll endeavor to remember as I don't use the mower very often compared to most GTT members.
    I have more ideas than ambition.


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    Maybe swap the bolts?

    You'll quickly know if it's the bolt or the threads in the axle.
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    mjncad's Avatar
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    Welcome to GTT, Denverguy. It's nice to have another Colorado guy on GTT, or are you from Denver, NC?

    I hope to make time this weekend to replace it.
    I have more ideas than ambition.


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