Looking for schooling on how the hydraulic operation of my 1023e actually works....
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    tommott77's Avatar
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    Question Looking for schooling on how the hydraulic operation of my 1023e actually works....

    Hi all,

    I've owned my 1023e for about a year now. I've had a couple other hydrostatic tractors before moving up to the 1023e....I'm now actually contemplating moving up to a 3 series. Last night I realized I don't have a firm grasp on how the hydrostatic and hydraulics actually work on my tractor. More specifically what's utilizing how much of the engine power when.

    I know there's a pump that I assume is run off the engine, but I'm a bit lost from there. Is the pump always running and taking a load off the engine, or another way to put it are the hydraulics using any engine power when the tractor and all hydraulics are all sitting idle? Is there a certain amount of rpm/throttle that operates the pump at its give amount of full flow?

    From the feel of my pants while operating the tractor I know that more engine throttle/rpms will increase the land speed of the hydrostatic drive of the tractor itself, but to me it feels like that the loader hydraulics only get stronger to a certain point of throttle/rpms but anything past that point seems to feel like it has diminishing returns on loader performance.
    Last edited by tommott77; 06-14-2017 at 10:52 AM.
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    John Deere 1025R TLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommott77 View Post
    Hi all,

    I've owned my 1023e for about a year now. I've had a couple other hydrostatic tractors before moving up to the 1023e....I'm now actually contemplating moving up to a 3 series. Last night I realized I don't have a firm grasp on how the hydrostatic and hydraulics actually work on my tractor. More specifically what's utilizing how much of the engine power when.

    I know there's a pump that I assume is run off the engine, but I'm a bit lost from there. Is the pump always running and taking a load off the engine, or another way to put it are the hydraulics using any engine power when the tractor and all hydraulics are all sitting idle? Is there a certain amount of rpm/throttle that operates the pump at its give amount of full flow?

    From the feel of my pants while operating the tractor I know that more engine throttle/rpms will increase the land speed of the hydrostatic drive of the tractor itself, but to me it feels like that the loader hydraulics only get stronger to a certain point of throttle/rpms but anything past that point seems to feel like it has diminishing returns on loader performance.
    Pump runs continually. Volume pumped equals speed of function. Pressure equals power applied.
    Hydrostatic are parasitic, in other words you lose engine HP to them. That is the short abridged version.

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    John Deere 1025R TLB's Avatar
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    Power or pressure is constant for a given pump above a given RPM, the only thing that varies to any extent is the volume and that is dependent on the pump displacement as well. Larger the tractor, more volume and more pressure.

    Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
    MY2013 1025R TLB
    47" 2 stage front QT Snow Blower
    647 Tiller
    54D QT mowing deck W/ independent lift
    120H FEL W/ 49 in bucket
    260 BH W/ 12" bucket
    Homemade 10 Kw PTO Driven Generator (Timing Belt Driven 2000RPM input, from front PTO)
    1972 Homelite XL12 inherited from Dad going strong!
    Stihl FS90 String Trimmer
    Mantis Rotary Tiller
    ABI 5ft. Heavy Duty Landscape Rake

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    tommott77 (06-14-2017)

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    tommott77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Deere 1025R TLB View Post
    Pump runs continually. Volume pumped equals speed of function. Pressure equals power applied.
    Hydrostatic are parasitic, in other words you lose engine HP to them. That is the short abridged version.

    Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
    Thanks for that. So if the pump is constantly running, and is parasitic always eating up some engine HP, am I correct in assuming that amount of engine power that the pump eats up increases in correlation with RPMs until it gets up to the aforementioned max pump pressure? Or is the parasitic power used up by the pump static and has no correlation with the engine RPMs or the flow rate of the pump?
    Last edited by tommott77; 06-14-2017 at 01:50 PM.
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    John Deere 1025R TLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommott77 View Post
    Thanks for that. So if the pump is constantly running, and is parasitic always eating up some engine HP, am I correct in assuming that amount of engine power that the pump eats up increases in correlation with RPMs until it gets up to the aforementioned max pump pressure? Or is the parasitic power used up by the pump static and has no correlation with the engine RPMs or the flow rate of the pump?
    I would think the static pump draw of HP is the same without load. Once you start using power then I belive the parasitic losses increase. In other words the pump probably loses a percentage across the range so if that is 5% you would multiply that by the HP shown in the the power curve. But now I am out of my knowledge base totally, so hopefully Kenny Will jump in here and correct me. But this is my limited understanding. Hopefully I will learn some more with others answers!! But getting to be an old dog......

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    MY2013 1025R TLB
    47" 2 stage front QT Snow Blower
    647 Tiller
    54D QT mowing deck W/ independent lift
    120H FEL W/ 49 in bucket
    260 BH W/ 12" bucket
    Homemade 10 Kw PTO Driven Generator (Timing Belt Driven 2000RPM input, from front PTO)
    1972 Homelite XL12 inherited from Dad going strong!
    Stihl FS90 String Trimmer
    Mantis Rotary Tiller
    ABI 5ft. Heavy Duty Landscape Rake

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    This is how the hydraulics make the tractor move forward and backwards:



    As for the implements...

    Let's look at your loader. The pump is continuously circulating hydraulic fluid, which is at a certain pressure, regulated by a pressure release valve. Whatever that valve is set to, if the pressure exceeds that setting, the fluid is diverted through that valve. That's why you can't really work your hydraulics too hard. If you try to lift something too heavy, it just won't move. It won't hurt the system.

    So as fluid circulates through the pump, part of that loop is constantly under pressure, which comes from the pump. The cylinders that lift and lower your loader have valves connected to them, which you control with the SCV (the joystick). When you pull back on the stick, the valve to the lift cylinders opens and fluid is pumped into them, which forces them to expand, lifting the bucket. You control the rate of flow by opening the valve a little or fully. When you release the stick, that valve closes and it stops moving. If you keep it back after the bucket goes all the way up, the pressure increases because you're pumping fluid into the cylinder but it has no where to go, so then the relief valve takes over and the fluid goes there and keeps circulating.

    When you push the stick forward, a different valve opens which sucks the fluid out of the cylinder, causing it to contract, and so the bucket lowers. Float mode depressurizes the cylinder and allows the fluid to drain out or flow in without any resistance beyond the size of the passages it has to travel through, so the bucket lowers with gravity and can go up and down as needed.

    I hope this helps.
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    Looking for schooling on how the hydraulic operation of my 1023e actually works....

    Quote Originally Posted by mike01 View Post

    When you push the stick forward, a different valve opens which sucks the fluid out of the cylinder, causing it to contract, and so the bucket lowers.
    Actually the loader uses double acting hydraulic cylinders. When you lift, it causes fluid to flow to one side of the cylinder and when you lower, it causes fluid to flow to the other side.



    This is an over simplified diagram that doesn't show the control valve but you can see the concept.
    Last edited by Kusa; 06-14-2017 at 08:30 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kusa View Post
    Actually the loader uses double acting hydraulic cylinders. When you lift, it causes fluid to flow to one side of the cylinder and when you lower, it causes fluid to flow to the other side.

    This is an over simplified diagram that doesn't show the control valve but you can see the concept.
    Thanks for the correction! I always wondered about that.
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    Hydraulics

    Hi there

    Following on from what was said above there hydraulic pump will have a pressure relief valve set to lift at the desired system pressure. The point of diminishing returns as you have mentioned would be the point at which the relief valve lifts. Whilst lifting the relief valve in itself is harmless, the oil itself will experience a shear heat which will cause the additive pack in the oil to break down and varnishing will form in the hydraulic system. In order to maintain peak performance use a quality oil, ideally a fully hydrocracked synthetic oil (there is a good one from Conoco in the US, I think it is Megaspin 46).

    Hope this helps. I've spent 20yrs with injection moulding machines, so base my comments on that experience.

    Regards
    Graham
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    Keep in mind.. There are different systems. The hydrostatic drive and the implement system, which includes sub systems. They operate differently. Have seperate pumps and such but share fluid and reservoir. You all's best bet is to buy the tech manual and read the theory of operation of each system. The 1 series is a good one to start on to understand the operation as it is a basic system with little interference of electronic controls. Each of you has touched on various theories. Each of you has a piece. Now read that theory of operation and you'll have it.

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