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    tareece's Avatar
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    frame seperation?

    OK this is probably nothing, but I noticed while my wife was operating (I was walking beside giving instructions on how to use the loader) that there seems to be a fitting issue where the operator foot sits and where the right fender meets that area


    The offending side:


    the "normal" fit


    I'm running through all my past photos in the meantime to see if this just happened or if it was like this when delivered...
    Thoughts?
    Last edited by tareece; 09-09-2019 at 09:53 PM.
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    Is it just me or are there lots of tractors breaking in half around here today?

    To the OP, is the operator station not bolted on perfectly straight? Maybe there is an adjustment for it.
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    Its hard to say if it was that way before, it is clear you don't want that to continue. There are usually two bolts on each side on many of these platforms and stepping on and off the one side might have caused it to come loose.

    I would get under there with a light and a wrench and socket (probably about 10mm) and tighten up the nuts that are there. If there are any bolts missing, I would replace them right away and snug them up. There is a lot of load on the platform when you climb on and off the machine.
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    tareece's Avatar
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    Seems like it was this way since I bought it











    So I guess since the bolts line up (it seems through the floor board) and the tractor works like a beast, there shouldn't be anything to fret about? or is there something I need to double check on?
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    Here is the link to the parts page for the operator platform, which shows the brackets and hardware.

    John Deere Parts Catalog
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Screenshot_2019-09-09 John Deere Parts Catalog.png  

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    you could try loosening up some bolts and see if you can get it lined up better. I feel like the body work on these tractors is kind of sloppy with some room for interpretation. Probably the difference between some lazy guy on the assembly line and someone that tried to put it on straight.

    in any case, it's purely cosmetic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tareece View Post
    Seems like it was this way since I bought it











    So I guess since the bolts line up (it seems through the floor board) and the tractor works like a beast, there shouldn't be anything to fret about? or is there something I need to double check on?
    I would personally want to get under the machine and check out why this has happened or been allowed to happen. Something has to be out of alignment or loose to allow that much of a gap on the operator platform. Personally, I wouldn't consider this "normal" and I wouldn't accept it as "just the way it is",

    The way these tractors are assembled, there shouldn't be that large of a gap in between those body panels. Its hard to say why the gap exists without looking into it further, but I sure would want to know why the gap is there as something has to be loose, you can see the threads on the bolt which draws the rear fender to the operator platform. Maybe that needs to be tightened up and there isn't anything else wrong. But I would want personal proof and confirmation.............plus i would want the gap eliminated by tightening up the platform to the fender. That might be just that simple to resolve this. Without getting under there and checking things, its really hard to say.

    I don't think this is a sign of the tractor splitting in half or of any other major issue. These body panels are composite plastic and there are some issues with the alignment of these panels between some machines hoods and side panels and between the fenders and platform. I would start with the simple and work from there........

    Please make sure to let us know what you or the dealer does find when they investigate the matter. I bet its simply tightening the bolts and the panels will align and the gaps disappear.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnH123 View Post
    Is it just me or are there lots of tractors breaking in half around here today?

    To the OP, is the operator station not bolted on perfectly straight? Maybe there is an adjustment for it.
    Did a bunch of searching after the weekend of broke ,cracked ,or otherwise disabled tractors.

    Its been quite common....mostly the imports mahindrance ,New Holland , or anyone that put a 3 point BH on too small of a tractor. Makes you think. I'm so glad I ditched my plan for a BH and bought a mini EX. Although my 955 has a frame so its probly a non issue but...I don't like how my lower 3 point arms are connected to the trans & my upper link point , even though its a bolt on steel part is still sketchy. I think the whole lower case is Alm.
    The 5 series tractors....I sure like them but theres a lot of bad reading related to them.
    If I ever get talked into the T4 koolaid...I'll be sure my machine is insured.
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    Quote Originally Posted by theduke View Post
    Did a bunch of searching after the weekend of broke ,cracked ,or otherwise disabled tractors.

    Its been quite common....mostly the imports mahindrance ,New Holland , or anyone that put a 3 point BH on too small of a tractor. Makes you think. I'm so glad I ditched my plan for a BH and bought a mini EX. Although my 955 has a frame so its probly a non issue but...I don't like how my lower 3 point arms are connected to the trans & my upper link point , even though its a bolt on steel part is still sketchy. I think the whole lower case is Alm.
    The 5 series tractors....I sure like them but theres a lot of bad reading related to them.
    If I ever get talked into the T4 koolaid...I'll be sure my machine is insured.

    When you think about hooking the Goose neck hitch mount for a trailer on the 3 point hitch arms on a tractor, verses having it centered in a truck bed over the rear axle and pretty squared in the rear truck frame rails, the load points couldn't be much different.

    One thing I learned in the trailer business early on is far too many people have a "If it can pull it, its likely OK" mentality about trailers, hitches and towing loads.

    Nothing could be further from the truth.

    The tractor which broke in half on here over the weekend was a 5101 (if my memory serves me). The trailer which was hooked to it most likely had either 7,500 lb axles or even 10,000 pound axles if the trailer has dual wheels on the axles.

    From what I found, a typical large round bale weighs 1,200 pounds. The load in question had 18 4 x 5 bales on it, which lets just keep the math simple and say each bale weighed 1,000 pounds. That means the load weighed 18,000lbs and the trailer weighs about the differnce. If the trailer has 10k axles, its not over loaded. But , the 5101e Deere has a 3 point lifting limit of 3,213 pounds at 24" of lift. Depending upon the way the trailer was loaded, its likely the load on the actual "hitch" on the trailer was greater than 3,213 lbs. Add in the "bounce" in the field and well, we know the rest of the story.

    Surprisingly, the 5101e Deere weighs only 7,320 pounds, according to Tractor Data. In reality, the load on the trailer was likely triple the weight of the tractor. That in itself doesn't make the load "dangerous", but it surely adds a tremendous stress to the tractor's chassis.

    Also, if the trailer were being pulled by a pick up truck, the load on the goose neck would have been placed on the hitch, centered over the trucks rear axle and also squared in the center between the trucks rear frame rails.

    Let's assume the trailer was being towed by a F350 pick up. The truck would have had a towing limit in the range of and the truck itself would likely weigh around 7,000 to 7,700 pounds. While Ford claims a "Gooseneck 5th Wheel towing limit of up to 35,000 pounds, the reality is that is the dually, F350 and most of the limits are significantly less than the advertised towing weights.

    Far too many people simply assume if it hooks to the truck and the truck can move it, it can tow it.

    Think about the weight of the hay trailer and the reality that it's actual tongue weight on the hitch should be 10% of the maximum load. That means the 20,000 pound load should have a load on the hitch of 2,000 pounds to be safe. The remainder of the load should be on the trailer, centered over the axles. Is that the way the trailer hooked to the tractor which "broke in half" was loaded? We have no idea.

    When the load is on the hitch in a pick up truck and the trailer bounce occurs. the load presses down on the hitch, which is centered right over the axle, right between the frame rails. It's a perfect design to for a load to be carried, which is why its used.

    Now, use a "Hay Hitch for Goose neck" and many of the 3 point hitch assemblies are limited to 3,000 pounds of tongue weight and 21,000 pounds of total weight. Let's say the hitch bounce occurs and where is the load being transferred? To extended 3 point arms, off the rear of the tractor.

    The 3 point arms, while designed for lifting, they are also designed for ground engaging loads. Loads which pull backwards, not loads which vertically "bounce" and apply down pressure on the hitch point.

    Basically, the load on the pick up truck would be like applying all of the load to the center of the framing material. Imagine, you have a structured beam which spans across 10 feet. The load is applied right in the center of the beam, where it is supported by the frame around the perimeter and the load is pressing down in the center of the "frame".

    Now, take the tractor 3 point hitch and it by design, is extended off the rear of the tractor frame. It would be like have a framed box 6 foot square with the two hitch arms canter-levered over the frame box by 3 feet. When the "bounce" occurred, all of the load is out on the very end of the frame rails hanging over the frame box.

    The load is very disproportionate and the stresses on the opposite end of the beams is tremendous. Instead of the box frame carrying the load, the two cantilevered beams are carrying the load. Pushing down on the extended frame rail is going to lift the other end. Suddenly, the load is prying the beams to dislodge the end of the beam opposite of the load and down pressure.

    I would bet the use of these 3 point hitch bars marketed as "Hay Hitches" is largely what is destroying the tractors. Between the fact the load is on a cantilevered set of beams (the 3 point arms) and the entire load is on the very end of the arm / beam, and not squarely in the center as it was designed to be in a traditionally towed load. something somewhere has to give.

    Whether its the breaking of the hitch itself, which is largely redistributing the massive concentrated load to the end of the 3 point arms or its the shearing of the case where the 3 point arms are attached.. But the 3 point arms by design concentrate all of the load right on the tip of the arms on their pivot point. This is where the cases are splitting, because of these extreme loads cantilevered.

    It would really be no different than installing a extended hitch out of the rear bumper of a truck, let's say by 36". Then you lower the gooseneck attachment head right onto the bumper hitch, hanging off the rear of the truck by 36". Haul the load in this fashion and then encounter a "bump" where the loads onto the hitch attachment point are suddenly multipled 10 fold. Either the truck is going to pop a wheelie and it would be very sudden and quite violent, or the attachment point of the bumper hitch is going to be sheared off.

    Same concept. Lay a sledge hammer across two 12" in diameter logs, where the ends of the sledge hammer handle extend past the logs by 12" on each end of the handle. Take another sledge hammer and smack the center of the sledge hammer between the two logs and you are likely to see stress put on the sledge hammers handle, but it wouldn't break and the response wouldn't be violent.

    Now, take the same set up and lay the sledge hammer handle across the logs. Using another sledge hammer, smack the very end of the handle which hangs over the log. The sledge lying across the logs is likely to violently flip off the logs towards the direction of the impact. The person swinging the sledge is likely to be hit in the face by the sledge hammer which had been lying across the logs.

    The down force on the 3 point hitch arms is very similar. Its extreme, its violent and its applying extreme forces to the end of the sledge hammer forcing something to break.

    I am surprised there aren't more incidents of this type of damage from people using the sledge . Its easy to see how the load can break tractors. Just because you can hook the goose neck to the 3 point hitch, its not without significant limits and risk of severe damage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tareece View Post
    OK this is probably nothing, but I noticed while my wife was operating (I was walking beside giving instructions on how to use the loader) that there seems to be a fitting issue where the operator foot sits and where the right fender meets that area


    The offending side:

    image


    the "normal" fit

    image

    I'm running through all my past photos in the meantime to see if this just happened or if it was like this when delivered...
    Thoughts?
    I had the same issue after I removed the fenders and floorboards. One side came back together with that exact kind of misalignment. The bolts for the multiple attachment points that hold those body panels on all have enough slop in them that the tolerance stacking is enough to get those panel out of alignment depending on how meticulous you are in aligning them as you tight the bolts and brackets that support. I keep planning to go back and loosen everything to re-align but havent’ gotten around to it yet. I has nothing to do with the frame. It’s entirely cosmetic and not functional. Such gaps in the body panels don't necessarily have anything to do with the underlying frame.
    Last edited by MacCool; 09-10-2019 at 07:17 AM.
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