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  1. Top | #11

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    Thanks Jason and Kenny. I had found that thread on the fuel issue. I am still chasing my tail on the different outcomes on the fuel solenoid. I can confirm that I get the pull function but definitely not the hold. I am still trying to determine if it is a problem in the circuit or the solenoid. The diode I found does not appear to be the V4 diode in this drawing. Click image for larger version. 

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    The wire colors do not match. But with the 2nd article Kenny posted, I see that there are others. I guess I need to dig further into that harness.

    I also can't identify the "fuel solenoid relay switch" mentioned in the article Kenny shared. I have also seen mention of a 15A fuse, but I can not identify a fuse that is dedicated to the fuel circuit. Everything else is working on this tractor.

    Needless to say, this would be easier with the shop manual. I definitely need to get one. If I am going to buy the CD, can I buy from somewhere that will let me download instead of waiting for the mail?

    Either way, would the shop manual have good enough pictures to help me identify the specific locations of the various relays, control modules and diodes? That area of the tractor is a huge mess. Nothing has labels, the wiring is extremely tight, and it is very difficult to see wire colors. OK, I am done whining.

    Lee
    2305, 200CX loader w/53" bucket, 62C MMM, and 47 SB.

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  3. Top | #12
    Captain Hook Kennyd's Avatar
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    There is no way to download them Lee, you will have to wait unless a good member here can send you the few pages you need.
    Kenny

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  4. Top | #13
    arlen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljnelson109 View Post
    Thanks Jason and Kenny. I had found that thread on the fuel issue. I am still chasing my tail on the different outcomes on the fuel solenoid. I can confirm that I get the pull function but definitely not the hold. I am still trying to determine if it is a problem in the circuit or the solenoid. The diode I found does not appear to be the V4 diode in this drawing.
    So, looking at the posted schematic....are you getting 12 volts on X4 wire 53(red wire on fuel solenoid)? It looks like like you should have 12 volts there when ((key is on) AND (seat switch is made)) OR ((key is on) AND (pto is off) AND (tranny in neutral)). If neither of those conditions produce 12 volts on the holding coil (red wire), then Diode V4 would be suspect.
    That is the main common denominator between the two ways for voltage to get to the holding coil.
    Is the "pull in relay" pulsing like is shown on the schematic?
    I would disconnect the wires from the solenoid when you check for the proper voltage... just to help isolate the problem. It should be easy to at least rule out the solenoid itself.
    I would also "ohm out" both coils...from red to black and from blue to black. I don't know what the proper ohm reading would be, but look for opens and shorts. Be careful of ohming through your fingers... it can mask an "open" condition. Of course do this with the solenoid disconnected.

    Does it look like the schematic is lining up with your tractor?
    If so, it's going to be allot easier troubleshooting from the piece of paper than fighting with tracing all the wires out.
    4720 66hp Open Station, Power Beyond, 3rd, 4th and 5th Rear SCV, iMatch, 400cx with SSQA, 3rd Loader Function, MX6, BoDozer Grapple
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    I am definitely seeing the pull. I have tested the process with the solenoid removed. There is a distinct pull on start and no hold. I have not been able to see voltage with the ignition on. I was not sure if that should work when the engine is not running. I only have that one page of schematic and was wondering about the controller I saw mentioned.

    So far most things seem to match that drawing. It does not seem to match 100%. It is so hard to see wire colors in the environment I am working. I may need to rig this thing to run and move it into the garage.


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    2305, 200CX loader w/53" bucket, 62C MMM, and 47 SB.

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    arlen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljnelson109 View Post
    I am definitely seeing the pull. I have tested the process with the solenoid removed. There is a distinct pull on start and no hold. I have not been able to see voltage with the ignition on. I was not sure if that should work when the engine is not running. I only have that one page of schematic and was wondering about the controller I saw mentioned.

    So far most things seem to match that drawing. It does not seem to match 100%. It is so hard to see wire colors in the environment I am working. I may need to rig this thing to run and move it into the garage.


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    If you can't see voltage on the holding coil with the key on, then I would find diode v4 and test it out.

    To temporarily "rig" it ... disconnect all 3 wires from fuel solenoid, connect black wire to ground, red to positive, and momentarily "pulse" the blue wire to positive to "suck in" the solenoid.

    Disconnect the red or black to shutdown. Heck... that will verify the operation of the solenoid too

    Oh, it just occurred to me... if the "pull in" part seems to be working, just put 12 volts to the red wire on the fuel solenoid.. then remove it when you want to shut down.
    Last edited by arlen; 02-24-2013 at 11:12 PM.
    4720 66hp Open Station, Power Beyond, 3rd, 4th and 5th Rear SCV, iMatch, 400cx with SSQA, 3rd Loader Function, MX6, BoDozer Grapple
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    Thanks for the input Arlen. One of my concerns and reasons that I think I need to put my hands on a manual is that I have read mention of a "thermistor" that drops the voltage on that hold circuit after it is engaged. Personally, I don't think thermistor is the right term there. But I could see there being a resistor that drops the voltage. Either way, the story was that if you apply battery voltage to that hold (red) wire it will cook the solenoid. I see nothing to support that in the diagram we are looking at. But since I believe I have observed some discrepencies between my tractor and the schematic I found, I am trying to be cautious.

    Your thought about using the red wire manually is more attractive than one post I read where the owner cut the pin on the solenoid so that it was ineffective, and then uses the fuel shut-off to shut down the tractor! That seems drastic. I would prefer to restore the machine it its original design if I can identify the bad component.

    I just checked, my local dealer does not have the manual or CD in stock. He also seems to be charging an up charge from the JD list price for both! I really wanted to swing by and pick up the manual this afternoon. This is going to eat at me until I nail down the problem. What I can't figure out is how this failed with the machine parked. I could see it dying in use. But I drove it to this spot, and then it would not start a couple months later. I am still wondering if I don't have a chewed wire somewhere or a corroded connection on a safety switch. So far, I have not seen either.

    Lee
    2305, 200CX loader w/53" bucket, 62C MMM, and 47 SB.

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    I should add. Have you ever had one of those moments where you are just kicking yourself for being too cheap to buy something you know you are going to need?

    Yeah, that's me right now.

    2305, 200CX loader w/53" bucket, 62C MMM, and 47 SB.

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    Captain Hook Kennyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljnelson109 View Post
    I should add. Have you ever had one of those moments where you are just kicking yourself for being too cheap to buy something you know you are going to need?

    Yeah, that's me right now.


    Yes, quite a few times!

    There are indeed thermistors used in some older models, but not your machine that I am aware of.
    Kenny

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    arlen's Avatar
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    I hope you didn't take my suggestion with manually applying voltage as my idea of a permanent fix.... I just thought you wanted to get it into your garage. This would also verify solenoid operation.
    I do believe it is a simple circuit as the schematic shows.
    Good Luck.
    4720 66hp Open Station, Power Beyond, 3rd, 4th and 5th Rear SCV, iMatch, 400cx with SSQA, 3rd Loader Function, MX6, BoDozer Grapple
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    Quote Originally Posted by arlen View Post
    I hope you didn't take my suggestion with manually applying voltage as my idea of a permanent fix.... I just thought you wanted to get it into your garage. This would also verify solenoid operation.
    I do believe it is a simple circuit as the schematic shows.
    Good Luck.
    But it could be a permanent fix. LOL

    I have had it running with the solenoid removed. I am just not a fan of moving it with so much taken apart. If this goes on much longer, I will definitely need to consider doing that. Either the bandaid you mention or possibly even moving with the solenoid out.

    Lee
    Last edited by ljnelson109; 02-25-2013 at 08:37 AM.
    2305, 200CX loader w/53" bucket, 62C MMM, and 47 SB.

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