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Towing trailers, big trailers, big trucks, and your requirements.

24K views 129 replies 36 participants last post by  Treefarmer 
#1 ·
So, I recently fell down a worm hole and really educated myself. Turns out I've been driving/towing illegally for quite some time. :unknown:

On a recent trip I was driving my Ram 2500 pulling an enclosed utility trailer. Everything went well and all was good. But I drove many miles, something like 2600 in 4 days. Had lots to think about during that time. I have a 20' open deck car trailer that I'll be using for transporting my model 60 once it's completed and ready to move about. The trailer has plenty of room, has 5200lb axles and a GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) of 10,400lbs. That's pretty close to maxing out the trailer. So I thought maybe I'll get a trailer with 7k axles so I have a GVWR of 14k which allows for roughly 10k load. That should work fine for the 60. :good2:

Perfect. Or so I thought.....

Hmmm. What's the trailer tow rating for my truck? I looked it up, about 12.5k. Darn. Will it handle it? Probably. But what happens if you get into an accident? Insurance won't cover that..... I could install 7k axles on my current trailer and hope for the best. What happens if that accident happens and I'm over the GVWR sticker on my trailer? Screwed again. Can't fake or get a new rating for the trailer. Manufacturer says that once it's been registered, it is what it is. Bigger axles would mean better reliability, but less actual payload due to their heavier weight. Well that means if I want a better weight rating I need a bigger trailer. That in turn says I need a truck that can handle that trailer.

In short, your truck has to have the ratings to tow what you want. While DOT and the police may not know this rating, your insurance company will find out. You don't want to be standing there holding the bag after the accident happened, regardless of who's fault it is. It's your fault if you're outside your ratings.

So, I need a truck that can pull 14k. That's not hard to find these days. But then I find out that here in TN (any many states) there's no longer allowances for personal use trailers/RVs and such. They have simple rules. If your trailer has a GVWR of 10,001lbs or more, it requires a class A license. That's right. A class A regular, not CDL, license. So I've been towing a class A combination vehicle for who knows how long illegally.

Oh boy, it gets deeper..... What if your trailer is 10k rated? Are you good to go? Maybe. If your truck's GVWR is 16k or less, yup, you're all set. If your combination (add both the trailer GVWR and the truck's GVWR) is rated for 26k or less, you're just fine. 26,001 or more, you guessed it, class A combination.

Most 1 ton trucks nowadays are rated for 14k. Most trailers with dual 7k axles are rated for 14k. That means when and if your towing setup was to be examined, you would be driving a setup with a GCVWR (Gross Combined Vehicle Weight Rating) of 28k. Again, class A combination. You have to have a regular, not CDL, class A license here in the state of TN to drive that legally.

If you are caught driving that combination without that license, you are essentially driving without a license. You could potentially go to jail. Think your insurance still has your back? Nope. They'll drop you like a hot potato.

These rating are very important, REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU ACTUALLY WEIGH. If you were overweight, that's a whole different ball of wax. Your trailer could be empty, but you're still liable.

I currently hold a class B CDL. That means I can operate a commercial vehicle (or private) that weighs over 26k. If I tow a trailer 10k or under, I'm ok. If my combined ratings exceed 26k, I'm out of class. So, in short, I'm getting a new license here shortly.

In TN it's not a big deal. Take the written exam (not nearly as in depth as a CDL) and a driving test. They want you to have your class A learner's permit prior to taking the driving test. From what I understand the test is pretty simple. They want to see you stopping with some distance in front of you, that you can keep your vehicle in the lane, use your signals for full lane changes, and can handle your trailer. Your state may have different laws. Please find out. It's kinda scary knowing that MANY people pulling RV's and personal trailers are illegal.

Other states generally respect and have reciprocity for your state's laws regarding licensing and requirements. So if your state has exceptions for personal use (non commercial), you'd be fine with your license in TN. However, you'll still need to be within your truck's weight limits. The police and DOT won't know what your truck is rated for towing, all they'll do is read the stickers, add them up, and potentially weigh you. I've never had that happen to me, but I'm going to be prepared.
 
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#2 ·
Used to be what you were registered/plated for. (declared GVW)

You could "de-rate" your plates, but had to stay under that limit.

U-Haul and the others plate their trucks at 26K but could plate them for 34....... They do that so Joe Smuck can rent them.

I swear they change the rules just to bust you.



I've give up caring.
 
#3 ·
thanks, gotta look into this. I like you have never given it much thought till now. I mostly haul boats and sometimes a small tractor under 4k on a 8k trailer. I have been driving towing for over fifty years and have yet to have an accident towing anything. I have a cabover bigfoot short box camper designed for a 1/2 ton i use on my 3/4 F250. The bigfoot is the lightest camper of its type and weighs 1500 pounds. I often wondered how that can be allowed on a 1/2 ton but that is qhat the camper is made for. Most of the 3/4 ton campers are 3500 lb or more and the reason i still keep my old bigfoot 1500 short box...... I think the GVWR is 9400 and the truck weighs 6400 leaving a 3000 lb payload.
 
#4 ·
I just went through that same scenario, after realizing that I have been towing my trailer illegally for the 4 years that I have had it. Just got my Class A regular drivers license since my GCVW is over the 26,001 threshold. See my posting at CDL Information

Dave
 
#5 ·
:munch:lots of things to think about in ur post -dieselshadow.

so u have been working on ur JD 60-huh. got any updates with pics to tell.:dunno:

this here insurance stuff can get real scary when a accident does happen--i've been sued once in my life-it ain't funny i say.

but he got nuthing-as back then i told his attorney who had a neck brace on too--that i have nuthing to give--our house back then was still in my dad's name as he held the note for it. both my vehicles was old-like in the 70's(this happened in 86)told him their was no way i was telling him where my deer rifles was at:nunu:

so it ended with Allstate paying for his car--and my insurance which i had Nationwide totaling mine too--and i got a ticket for turning on a not green light-which i was making a left turn anyway-i forget the length he went till he hit me-and he actual aimed and ran across 2 lanes to hit me past the intersection.
back then if u turned left without a green u admitted 51% fault--this was in Md. a cop witnessed it but would not testify -why:dunno:this guy ran down the road afterwards to use a pay phone-refused to go to the pital-as a ambulance was there in like 15 minutes that day--yet-i got whatever u call that when someone comes and hands u papers ur being sued after he asks if ur so and so.

i know my wreck has nuthing to do with what weight ur hauling-but it could be u--if ur in one(a wreck) and ur not legal.

get legal i say.
 
#6 ·
First and foremost every state has different laws regarding weight ratings and in particular when a CDL is needed. Also reciprocity is a courtesy but not a guarantee, so if you try to be a huge a-hole to an inspector in a different state they will run out of ink showing you their form of love if your license doesn't meet their requirements. Ohio is simple, a single unit over 26k needs a CDL and a double unit (truck and trailer) needs a CDL if both of the units are more than 10k each. Ohio has an exception to those limits for non-commercial use.

As for weight ratings, Ohio doesn't care what your vehicle ratings are, you can't exceed the rating of the tire or 20k per axle whichever is less. I have a friend who is an expert on commercial vehicle laws in Ohio, he educated me one the things an inspector looks at when deciding to pull a vehicle over; how a load is secured, how the trailer is attached to the vehicle and weights and balances.

You plan on getting legal by Tennessee standards which is good especially if you get into a serious crash but if your trailer will haul that model 60 albeit barely I'm not sure I'd be replacing it unless trailering it was a regular occurrence.

Newer 3/4 ton trucks will haul 14-15k with a gas engine and low 20s with diesel. I have a '17 GMC 2500 with the gas engine, it hauls 10k no problem - all day long, 12k it's breathing heavy on the highway and 14-15k the 6.0 is looking for it's inhaler but the suspension and brakes are up to the task which is the most important thing to consider.
 
#9 ·
First and foremost every state has different laws regarding weight ratings and in particular when a CDL is needed. Also reciprocity is a courtesy but not a guarantee, so if you try to be a huge a-hole to an inspector in a different state they will run out of ink showing you their form of love if your license doesn't meet their requirements. Ohio is simple, a single unit over 26k needs a CDL and a double unit (truck and trailer) needs a CDL if both of the units are more than 10k each. Ohio has an exception to those limits for non-commercial use.

As for weight ratings, Ohio doesn't care what your vehicle ratings are, you can't exceed the rating of the tire or 20k per axle whichever is less. I have a friend who is an expert on commercial vehicle laws in Ohio, he educated me one the things an inspector looks at when deciding to pull a vehicle over; how a load is secured, how the trailer is attached to the vehicle and weights and balances.

You plan on getting legal by Tennessee standards which is good especially if you get into a serious crash but if your trailer will haul that model 60 albeit barely I'm not sure I'd be replacing it unless trailering it was a regular occurrence.

Newer 3/4 ton trucks will haul 14-15k with a gas engine and low 20s with diesel. I have a '17 GMC 2500 with the gas engine, it hauls 10k no problem - all day long, 12k it's breathing heavy on the highway and 14-15k the 6.0 is looking for it's inhaler but the suspension and brakes are up to the task which is the most important thing to consider.
used to be a scale house on a side road down by Winchester, VA. there they all looked at ur steering tires back then to see what they was stamped for weight. that scale fella knew u was over on the old road for one reason-to by pass the interstate scale house:lol:. some guys ran a smaller steering tire to save money-i only had a 12,000 lb steering axle on my truck, but the fella who i started out hauling steel for had the smaller tires on-heck i had 3 different sizes on the whole outfit:banghead::laugh:
in Pa. u could only scale up to 14,000 lbs per axle--12 on the steering. now if i would of had a 10 ft spread axle setup-then i could of got up to 20,000lbs then. lots-and lots of different laws for sure.
 
#7 ·
I forget what year it took affect, but the states to get federal money have to abide by the federal laws. I have copies in my truck even though I'm only over the 10,000 limit with a trailer. For the last 5 or 6 years I went with agricultural plates, according to the fed law you are exempt from most all the requirements last I checked. What gets more interesting when all this stuff started, I checked with NY dot, got one answer, with a NY dot inspector got a different answer, asked questions on the federal web site, got totally different answers. One of the things to remember is you may need the dot number, and you will if you have a business sign on the truck, then it gets even worse. I use my truck trailer, twice a year to transport stuff for my business, got a waiver from my insurance company that I didn't need commercial insurance. Every time I see anyone with a truck and trailer and the sign on the door without a DOT number I tell them they best get one and look up the law, especially people that do lawns. You know that gas can you carry to fill the lawn mowers, now we are into the hazmet signs and bigger fines, and eventually each state will see the money they can get and start stopping them. and dieselshadow that d60 you are pulling, going to show it? even though they give ribbons and not cash prizes, that can mean you need the sign and a dot number, If I remember correctly they have a exemption for horse shows, again last time I looked. and for the guy with the bees that posted above I went with the commercial agricultural NY plates and you get special exemptions for bees, except again last I knew Calif. doesn't have those kinds of plates and you may not have that exemption in Calif.:flag_of_truce:

luckily I have cut down the number of hives I have, so now I just make an extra trip moving honey or bees, and leave the trailer at home.
 
#25 ·
I don't move bees anymore. i used to do almond pollination in Ca. but stopped that cause it was hard on my bees.
 
#8 ·
A big thing to remember here. Just because your truck CAN pull a load, doesn’t mean it should.

For example, my Ram 2500 was rated for 12.5k towing. Seems a bit low for what it was equipped with. Would it handle 14k? Probably just fine. Wouldn’t be legal though.....
 
#22 ·
There is one other thing to think about regarding the truck when pulling a trailer - the rated load capacity of the truck itself.

This is on a sticker inside the driver door jamb. It should list the GVW and other stuff but the important part I am taking about here is the payload capacity. A lot of guys with 1/2 ton trucks pulling big camping trailers fall into this.

You have to add up your fuel weight, how much weight of people you have, and any cargo you have in the truck. When you subtract that from the available cargo weight rating what is lift is what your hitch weight can be.

So for an example - let’s say you have a cargo weight of 2000#. Take away fuel of 150#, 2 people of 300#, and some cargo of 300#. 2000 minus 750 equals 1250#. If your trailer that is 12,500# loaded is setup right with 10% hitch weight you are barely OK.

Just an example - and Jason I am sure you know this. But many people get all tied up with tow ratings and pay no attention to the available cargo rating of the truck.

Around here getting your truck/trailer scaled is only $8. Well worth a couple trips when you get a new setup to be sure everything is right.

And as far as liability - I would be doing the same as you in your situation. It means a new license and a new truck so be it. I want to be safe going down the road and want to be able to sleep at night. All it takes is one idiot causing you to wreck and their insurance going after you and taking everything you have,
 
#10 ·
#14 ·
I know a lot of law breakers in TN! (Including me when I lived there....) :lolol:

Funny thing is when I moved there and went to get my drivers license I told them what I had / used and I was told that all I needed was a regular DL unless I was commercial. :laugh:

Getting the plates for the truck and trailer the clerk tried to tell me I only needed the standard 10k truck plate....:banghead: NOT.

Don’t get beat down. Information is a good thing, not a beat-down.

I’m not sure where the “you could” so “you have to” logic you’re talking about came from or means? :dunno:
You could = manufacturer's weight rating.

You have to = Needing to have a license based on the manufacturer's rating verse the licensed / register / declared weight.
 
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#11 ·
This kind of thing is why I give up and just hire out any major hauling. I have my Tundra 1/2 ton and a 8,000lb camping trailer. That's as big as I'll tow, If I replace the camper it'll be to a smaller/lighter one anyway. I keep looking at flatbed trailers but I'd only use one once or maybe twice a year for a local haul. I'll hire someone for a couple $$$ and let them do it.
 
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#48 ·
toy's don't hold up well to towing not really designed for it. your on the right track going smaller. 8K means when loaded you are way over weight anyway. Don't forget you have to add the weight in your tundra to the GCVWR.
 
#12 ·
No matter what, likely your still doing something wrong.

I really dislike the logic that "you could" so "you have to".

With that logic, if your truck has a GCVWR of greater than 26k and a trailer hitch you would still need a non-commercial CDL even if you didn't own a trailer.

I have a trailer which has a max capacity of 14k. My truck is only rated to tow a max of 10,300#. I registered the trailer for 10k. The truck is registered for 18k.

When I pull it I use the proper weight distributing receiver hitch. The trailer has the proper tires and the tires on the truck are over-rated 10 ply load range E. The trailer has brakes on both axles and a working break-away system. All the lights work. Anything I put on it is properly secured.

I am sure that if you dig deep enough I can't legally tow a 14K rated trailer with my truck. I have no intention of replacing either. It is only used within the capacity of the lowest rated component.

When I haul something for a friend they usually buy the fuel and dinner. I am sure that somewhere I have received payment and now need DOT commercial authority. Thinking about it, I probably am in trouble with the IRS as I didn't declare the "income".

I never realized just how heinous a criminal I was. :lol:
 
#13 ·
No matter what, likely your still doing something wrong.

I really dislike the logic that "you could" so "you have to".

With that logic, if your truck has a GCVWR of greater than 26k and a trailer hitch you would still need a non-commercial CDL even if you didn't own a trailer.
Don’t get beat down. Information is a good thing, not a beat-down.

I’m not sure where the “you could” so “you have to” logic you’re talking about came from or means? :dunno:
 
#15 ·
Gotcha. :good2:

I still wouldn’t get carried away with this. Guys like yourself aren’t the target of enforcement. All this thread was about was to inform you of the possibility for needing or requiring something else to do what you want to do. Most people here want to follow the rules. But it’s very hard to do if you don’t know. The point here was to make sure you check your ratings and then educate yourself about your states laws. It can be confusing at best. But at least you’d know. That conversation with enforcement becomes much better if you have knowledge.

Hopefully you never have the need for that conversation..... :thumbup1gif:
 
#18 ·
The problem is when you cross a state line and aren't on an interstate. You can be a legal beagle at home but then you venture into another state and your in the pound.

I have always tried to run legal / properly and have spent good :gizmo: to do so and I get a bit PO'd when I see trash like the picture you posted of the guy hauling watermelons and nothing being done to correct it.

I never considered the drivers license rating for a non-commercial pickup's but with all the improvements I guess they are pushing the limits into the next level. I never considered loading a pickup that heavy. I guess these new fancy pickups that cost more than my first Frieghtliner did can go pretty heavy.

Then again, up until a few years ago I had a (commercial) CDL-A so it really didn't matter.

I guess I need to dig into Kentucky's laws if not just to know what I am doing wrong. :lol:

As far as the conversation with law enforcement goes, most of the time Yes Sir and No Sir are about as far as you want to go. I don't carry proof of the law because if it goes there you might find that challenging the officer has other consequences. I'll so as far to say Sorry Sir, I understood the law to mean.... and leave it at that. If there is a question about the law, save that for the judge.

Case in point, I got pulled in California buy a state trooper. He wrote me for illegal lights. I had KC Daylighters on the roll bar. They were covered and it was daylight. I wasn't speeding or breaking any other laws that I new of. His interpretation was "They are for off road use only and you're on the road." Fortunately the Judge didn't have the same view point.
 
#24 ·
Ok, did some research.

Kentucky's law is the same as Tennessee and follows the Federal CDL requirements.

Kentucky doesn't offer a non-commercial CDL. If you need a CDL, you need the real thing.

License Class Type

Class Code Class Description

A CDL, Class A

B CDL, Class B

C CDL, Class C

D Operators, Class D*
*This class of license includes passenger cars, station wagons, pickup trucks, utility vehicles, and most panel trucks. This type and class of license is valid for any single motor vehicle, and a trailer, with weights not greater than 26,000 pounds, designed to carry less than 16 passengers (including the driver) and not placarded for the purpose of transporting hazardous materials.

Class A CDL

For any combination of vehicles with a gross vehicle weight rating ( GVWR ) of 26,001 pounds or more, provided
the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is more than 10,000 pounds.

Q. Do I need a CDL?

A. If the manufacturer’s weight rating (GVWR/GCWR) of your power unit is 26,001 pounds or greater and you pull
something 10,001 or greater you need a class “A” CDL.


Q. Does the weight on my vehicle tag matter as far as the driver needing a CDL?

A. No, the weight on the tag is not the weight that determines if you need a CDL. The weight is the GVWR or
Gross Vehicle Weight Rating. This weight is determined by the manufacturer of the vehicle or trailer. GVWR and GCWR
are normally determined by checking the vehicle manufacture’s identification plate
, usually located inside of the
driver’s side door or on the header board or tongue of the trailer.

Tags do matter though.
What YOU can drive/operate is determined by the drivers license.
The weight you can put on the road is determined by your plates and the vehicles GVWR.
In addition to making sure you have the right license in you pocket, you better have the correct plates as well. This is where most folks cringe because a 20K truck plate isn't cheap.

Kentucky requires a current medical card to have a CDL.

Some other things to consider when you have a CDL.
There are different rules for violations such as speeding.
With a CDL you cannot text or use a handheld phone while driving, anywhere, anytime.
With a CDL, you cannot have a Blood Alcohol Content that can be measured, typically 0.01.
Handing the officer your CDL will let him know you should understand weight limits, tie down requirements, pre-trip safety checks, etc.
In a law suit, you are considered a professional driver.


So if you have a bad-azz pickem' up truck with a great towing capacity, just tow a small trailer and your good. :lol:
 
#26 ·
Here is the KS drivers license requirements. CDL has to follow federal requirements. Those are in red. Below that in green are the regular drivers license requirements. Underlined below that is the definition of GCVW as used in this statute. I think this is common among most states. Always remember that the C in CDL is for Commercial. Which means "for hire". Compensation must be involved to be "for hire". The word "compensation" can cover a lot of area. Generally that means you accept compensation for hauling from point A to point B. Beyond that, it gets pretty sticky and can just be some trooper that wants to make a name for himself, or maybe just had a bad night before. If I am hauling my own tractor to the dealer for service, a CDL is not needed. I bought a couple of "not for hire" magnetic signs to stick on the side of the trailer to help emphasize this. Should I ever get stopped, I will just accept the ticket and show up in court with my attorney. Now that I have a proper Class A regular drivers license, I feel pretty confident that I am legal as long as I don't exceed my 24M vehicle license, although my GCVW is 29,800#.

Dave

2014 Statute
Prev Article 2. - DRIVERS' LICENSES Next
8-234b. Classes of drivers' licenses; applications for original licenses; examinations; rules and regulations. (a) Every original
driver's license issued by the division shall indicate the class or classes of motor vehicles which the licensee is entitled to drive. For this
purpose the following classes are established:
(1) Commercial class A motor vehicles include any combination of vehicles with a gross combination weight rating of 26,001 pounds
or more, providing the gross vehicle weight rating of the vehicle or vehicles being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds;
(2) commercial class B motor vehicles include any single vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more, or any
such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000 pounds gross vehicle weight rating;
(3) commercial class C motor vehicles include any single vehicle less than 26,001 pounds gross vehicle weight rating, or any such
vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000 pounds, or any vehicle less than 26,001 pounds gross vehicle weight rating towing a vehicle
in excess of 10,000 pounds gross vehicle weight rating, provided the gross combination weight rating of the combination is less than 26,001
pounds comprising:
(A) Vehicles designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or
(B) vehicles used in the transportation of hazardous materials which requires the vehicle to be placarded;
(4) class A motor vehicles include any combination of vehicles with a gross combination weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more,
provided the gross combination weight rating of the vehicle or vehicles being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds, and all other lawful
combinations of vehicles with a gross combination weight rating of 26,001 pounds, or more; except that, class A does not include a
combination of vehicles that has a truck registered as a farm truck under K.S.A. 8-143, and amendments thereto;
(5) class B motor vehicles include any single vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more, or any such vehicle
towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000 pounds gross vehicle weight rating. Class B motor vehicles do not include a single vehicle registered
as a farm truck under K.S.A. 8-143, and amendments thereto, when such farm truck has a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 pounds, or
more; or any fire truck operated by a volunteer fire department;
(6) class C motor vehicles include any single vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating less than 26,001 pounds, or any such vehicle
towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000 pounds gross vehicle weight rating, or any vehicle with a less than 26,001 gross vehicle weight
rating towing a vehicle in excess of 10,000 pounds gross vehicle weight rating, provided the gross combination weight rating of the
combination is less than 26,001 pounds, or any single vehicle registered as a farm truck under K.S.A. 8-143, and amendments thereto, when
such farm truck has a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 pounds, or more, or any fire truck operated by a volunteer fire department; and
(7) class M motor vehicles includes motorcycles.
As used in this subsection, "gross vehicle weight rating" means the value specified by the manufacturer as the maximum loaded weight
of a single or a combination (articulated) vehicle. The gross vehicle weight rating of a combination (articulated) vehicle, commonly referred
to as the gross combination weight rating, is the gross vehicle weight rating of the power unit plus the gross vehicle weight rating of the
towed unit or units.

(b) Every applicant for an original driver's license shall indicate on such person's application the class or classes of motor vehicles for
which the applicant desires a license to drive, and the division shall not issue a driver's license to any person unless such person has
demonstrated satisfactorily ability to exercise ordinary and reasonable control in the operation of motor vehicles in the class or classes for
which the applicant desires a license to drive. The division shall administer an appropriate examination of each applicant's ability to drive
such motor vehicles. Except as provided in K.S.A. 8-2,125 through 8-2,142, and amendments thereto, the director of vehicles may accept a
copy of the certificate of a person's road test issued to an individual under the regulatory requirements of the United States department of
transportation, in lieu of requiring the person to demonstrate ability to operate any motor vehicle or combination of vehicles, if such
certificate was issued not more than three years prior to the person's application for a driver's license.
(c) Any person who is the holder of a valid driver's license which entitles the person to drive class A motor vehicles may also drive
class B and C motor vehicles. Any person who is the holder of a valid driver's license which entitles the person to drive class B motor
vehicles may also drive class C motor vehicles.
(d) The secretary of revenue shall adopt rules and regulations establishing qualifications for the safe operation of the various types,
sizes and combinations of vehicles in each class of motor vehicles established in subsection (a). Such rules and regulations shall include the
adoption of at least the minimum qualifications for commercial drivers' licenses contained in the commercial motor vehicle safety act of
1986.
(e) Any reference in the motor vehicle drivers' license act to a class or classes of motor vehicles is a reference to the classes of motor
vehicles established in subsection (a), and any reference in the motor vehicle drivers' license act to a classified driver's license or a class of
driver's license means a driver's license which restricts the holder thereof to driving one or more of such classes of motor vehicles.
(f) The secretary of revenue may enter into a contract with any person, who meets the qualifications imposed on persons regularly
employed by the division as drivers' license examiners, to accept applications for drivers' licenses and to administer the examinations
required for the issuance of drivers' licenses.
(g) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a), any person employed as an automotive mechanic who possesses a valid class C
driver's license may drive any class A or class B motor vehicle on the highways for the purpose of determining the proper performance of the
vehicle, except that this does not include commercial class A, B or C vehicles.
History: L. 1975, ch. 36, § 2; L. 1976, ch. 47, § 1; L. 1976, ch. 46, § 1; L. 1977, ch. 35, § 1; L. 1978, ch. 44, § 1; L. 1981, ch. 39, § 1;
L. 1982, ch. 40, § 1; L. 1989, ch. 38, § 19; L. 1990, ch. 41, § 1; L. 1991, ch. 36, § 4; L. 1995, ch. 190, § 1; L. 1997, ch. 101, § 1; L. 2010, ch.
Statute | Kansas State Legislature http://www.kslegislature.org/li_2014/b2013_14/statute/008_000_0000_c...
1 of 2 6/5/2019, 2:42 PM
 
#27 · (Edited)
These are the classes in Illinois, Land of the Diesel F-250 / 350 including some dually’s running B (8,000lbs) plates.

I went down to get a A class non CDL that was not going to happen at the 3 DMV’s I went too. They just do not do Class A non CDL because to take the test you need to bring a semi and that requires a CDL. Ended up with a C because even though what it says below doesn’t not fit a 12k truck plate and 14k trailer plate they follow a rule like Tim’s flow chart. Of course as stated above upsetting a trooper you might still have to go to court. I could not take the test with my truck and trailer, it had to be a 26,000lb straight truck. If I would have brought a smaller truck they would have put a restriction on my C class to that weight.
 

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#29 ·
That class A reads just like KS, which I just got for my 29,800# GCWR pickup/trailer combination. Apparently not all DMV's are up to snuff on this stuff. I wanted to go to the next county to the west of me for this as my small county does not handle these and I have to go to a "full service" DMV. However, they told over the phone that they did not have anything other than CDL or farm for me. This county was not much bigger than my small county, so it would have been much easier to drag my trailer along. So I called the DMV in the big city and yep, they knew all about Class A driver licenses. No problem there, so that is where I went, towing my 31ft gooseneck trailer so I could take the driving test. That was no fun in the big city, especially since I had to take all left turns, of which two of them were dual left turn lanes with someone beside me each time. Interestingly, the driving test examiner was not a trooper, but what appeared to be just a civil employee with no uniform. All he checked prior to the driving test was the lights.

I suggest you try a different location as I did.

Dave
 
#28 ·
I might be wrong but I don’t think the GCVWR is equal to the GVWR of the truck added to to the GVWR of the trailer. You can’t have the payload capacity of the truck maxed out while pulling the max trailer weight rating.
Indiana has a “license for hire” that replaced the “chauffeurs license” for vehicles in excess of 16,000 pounds but less than 26,000 pounds. It also talks about “declared weight” on CDL qualifications. I assume this means what weight the vehicle is registered as rather than actual weight ratings?
Another question then about trailer weight ratings- if you have a utility trailer with a GVWR of say 5,000 pounds and are towing with a smaller SUV, your trailer rating could be in excess of tow vehicle rating but if it isn’t loaded that heavy you are still legal?
 
#30 ·
Check out my post #26 paragraph #7 in this thread where it explains what it means by GVWR. This is strictly the combined weight of the combined vehicles as published by the manufacturer. It has nothing to do with actual loading or vehicle license/registration limits. I licensed my pickup for 24,000# and thought I was OK, but since have found out I have been towing my trailer for 4 years illegally. I suspect that 99% of those people with similar trailers have either no knowledge of the proper driver license requirements or just don't care. I don't know a single other soul who has a Class A drivers license.

Dave
 
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#31 ·
This whole "what if you get into an accident... you'll get in trouble" thing seems to me like a lot of extra worry over a very unlikely situation. Have you ever heard of a non-commercial vehicle accident where they towed the truck/trailer somewhere and weighed it out to find out total weight, trailer weight, tongue weight, etc. and then compared it to the exact rating of the vehicle and either charged someone or they were sued for liability or insurance denied a claim? Commercial is totally different and I am not talking about that... But really folks, unless the load is just grossly beyond what your truck should be towing I find it very, very unlikely to be an issue.

Here's why:

My '17 Ram 2500, like Dieselshadow's, has a tow rating of 12,630#. Other very similar 2500s (also 4WD, also crew cab, also short box, same engine & trans) are rated for 15,630# towing capacity. Why? Because mine has an axle ratio of 3.73 and the other has the 4.10 gears. Same brakes, same frame, same hitch setup, same everything except the gears in the axles. Nothing safety-related is different. It's purely a durability & longevity reason that one is rated at 15,630 and the other at 12,630.

So, if I'm pulling a 5th wheel camper properly hooked up that weighs 14,000# are the authorities or the insurance company going to dig in deep enough to go all the way to axle ratio and then claim that I was liable for the accident, but if I would have had 4.10 gears it wouldn't be a problem? No. Or if my camper is rated at a dry weight of 12,000 but I happen to have all the fluid tanks full so the gross weight is 13,500 is someone going to weigh it and cry foul? No. Now I'm not advocating that you go out and totally disregard ratings. They are still good to pay attention to. But it would take an exceptionally out-of-spec situation for these types of worries to actually come true for a non-commercial driver.

These are Internet hypochondriac issues, not something to actually lose sleep over.
 

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#34 ·
What you are not taking into account is today's "so sue me" attitude. There are people out there just looking for a chance to "get" you, so they pull in front of you, step on the brakes, causing you to run into them and then they sue you. That is why so many truckers (and others) have dash cams today. It is a matter of self preservation. Back in the 60's, I was in court when I heard a judge make the statement "you just cannot run into the person in front of you" and that is what they are counting on. So, unless you are in an accident, you are not likely to get stopped, but once you are in that accident, they will be investigating and if you are found to be illegal, pay the man over there. Then come the lawsuits. Negligence. That is not a word you want to hear in the courtroom. That word means big bucks and they are not coming your way.

Dave
 
#32 ·
I beg to differ. I have seen trucks being weighed right on the side of the road. They have portable weighing pads. They’ll call for them and weigh you if they suspect you are overweight. I’m also starting to see hot-shot trucking getting stared at harder now. If you even begin to look like one, you could be a target. And to think insurance won’t look it up, you’re absolutely wrong. Companies today love to find a way to pass the liability on to someone else. Why leave the door open to that? The whole “it’ll never happen to me” thing is a very bad place to put yourself.

All I’m trying to say is don’t be ignorant, know your capabilities, know your limitations, and know the law. Only then can you make an informed decision. Then go about and do what you’re gonna do. :good2:

I know what I have to do.
 
#33 ·
in my lifetime i have seen little towns weighing pickup trucks along the side of the road loaded with firewood. yelp-firewood. the stuff u was gonna heat ur home with. now the ones who bought back at that time the lowest plate(weight of which heck pretty much every one did(kinda me too) my first half ton i was over loaded with me in it):lol:

so it was the ones who had the stickers stuck to ur left bottom corner of windshield saying what u had paid for in weight-my f-250 back then had 3 different weight ratings i could choose from---7,000lbs-9,000-and 11,000lbs gross. have no clue if that's the same now or not. no body had trailers they pulled around back then that i knew.:dunno:
lots of folks in the yr of early 80's bought wood burning stoves to beat the cost of oil back then. that's when all this crap started about weighing pickups with firewood on-and of course usually 2 or more fellas in the cab too.

lots of portable scales set up here around my area to just weigh coal buckets-me--i never got weighed by the portables-but then i didn't run heavy much either.

just let someone get killed and let the hunt begin i say.
 
#35 ·
lots of portable scales set up here around my area to just weigh coal buckets-me--i never got weighed by the portables-but then i didn't run heavy much either.
Weighing non-commercial vehicles? I don't buy it. At least that is not something that happens in Minnesota or around this area at all.

You guys keep talking about the things you think will happen. Have you ever seen or heard of this specific situation happening?

If you don't want to risk things that's just fine. I'm just saying that it is a pretty unlikely situation. I don't like the 'strictly by the book or the sky will fall' mindset myself. I also have never been in an auto accident in 38-ish years of driving though, so maybe I'm biased towards the unlikeliness of these things.
 
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#42 ·
Penna is short for Pennsylvania.
 
#49 ·
Ah. I've never heard that before. I figured it was either somewhere in Canada or a made up name since some folks don't like to use their real location on the Internet.
 
#43 ·
Ive seen them weigh trucks leaving a racetrack around here. A few got tickets for exceeding their registered weight.

For us you can get regular plates for a pickup, but that limits you to 7,000lbs total. On my old truck that would have meant no to grocery shopping. I registered at 15,000 as it was the highest without requiring commercial inspections.

As for the interstate compact. It is law, but that doesn’t mean police in other states won’t necessarily write a ticket, but who wants to travel to another state to fight a ticket? New Hampshire doesn’t require inspections or liability insurance. Maine will issue tickets for no insurance, but they get dismissed in court.
 
#44 ·
#50 ·
This surprises me, especially since Minnesota is a HUGE nanny state and if we're not doing it here I wouldn't think it would be done elsewhere.

Out of curiosity, since that thread starts out asking if anyone has been "cited for pulling a boat that weighed more than the manf. max recommended towing capacity for your vehicle"...

How would a DOT officer who stopped me know what my 2017 Ram 2500 (mentioned above) is rated for? Since the ONLY thing that separates my 12,630 rating from an identical vehicle that has a 15,630 rating is my axle ratio and nothing that I know of on the vehicle itself references axle ratio it would be impossible to determine. Are you (the folks here in general that claim this happens) implying that they have access to a manufacturer's database of VINs that describes every last build config item of my vehicle? Because that's the only way that it could be figured out short of a physical axle teardown.
 
#45 ·
I don’t think the weight is a big thing if one is responsible and stays within the means of the truck and trailer. I don’t ever get over 6500 pounds car and trailer. My biggest concern is the TIRES. Nothing made in USA THEY ARE ALL china or Indonesia or some dump country. Just had a perfectly good tire blow out coming home. These trailer tires today are pure crap. Anybody have any leads to get AMERICAN TIRES MADE IN THE USA?:flag_of_truce::flag_of_truce::flag_of_truce:
 
#63 ·
G614 Goodyears (G Rated, must have rims that can handle 120 psi also)
Michelin Ribs

We've always used LT tires on our trailers. Usually take offs from the pickup.

I've never gotten why run a "trailer tire" vs a LT tire with a similar load cap. :dunno:
 
#46 · (Edited)
Towing

In MN the commercial means in commerce which means money changing hands. We do not need special license for recreational or personal vehicles. I have held a CDL for over 40 years and am a commercial vehicle inspector trained and regulated by the MN State Patrol for 28 years. There is a lot of misinformation out there. You need to learn the laws of the state you are in as they are all different. I have enough trouble keeping track of the laws in MN. I think the point of this thread is to point out that you need to learn the laws where you live. Want another curve ball? In MN a farmer can have anyone with a valid drivers license drive when hauling his commodities. This includes his 15 year old child with a farm license. We need to remember the meaning of State which is Country. Every state is its own little country with its own rules. Learn the rules that apply to you.

KURTEE

AKA Crazy Kurt
 
#47 ·
In MN the commercial means in commerce which means money changing hands. We do not need special license for recreational or personal vehicles. I have held a CDL for over 40 years and am a commercial vehicle inspector trained and regulated by the MN State Patrol for 28 years. There is a lot of misinformation out there. You need to learn the laws of the state you are in as they are all different. I have enough trouble keeping track of the laws in MN. I think the point of this thread is to point out that you need to learn the laws where you live. Want another curve ball? In MN a farmer can have anyone with a valid drivers license drive when hauling his commodities. This includes his 15 year old child with a farm license. We need to remember the meaning of State which is Country. Every state is its own little country with its own rules. Learn the rules that apply to you.

KURTEE

AKA Crazy Kurt
I drove cdl for farm purposes before I had a license on road. I got a permit for 112 at 12-13 without a license.

State laws do rule and the interstate compact makes what’s legal in your home state legal nation wide.

I’ll repeat it may require a judge to settle that.
 
#54 · (Edited)
We should probly have a new thread to compare stickers....

Mine is a Cab & Chassi truck...3500 ,2007 ,Dually Dodge with 3.73's

It reads 12,500 GVWR ( sticker on drivers door)


With 4.10's it surly would be much higher.

My frame is nearly a foot tall behind the cab and 9' long.

Biggest I could get @ the time.

My truck is nothing like the 3500 pick-ups with a bed..... dually or single wheel.

Transmission is twice the size of standard 3500's and a 6 speed auto as well as a much larger rear axel.

GVWR was not a concern as Its function is to tow a 16' ,6000 lb trailer on a daily basis for work. 95% all highway so road gears made the most sense for mileage.
 
#55 ·
I have been stopped by the highway patrol while driving a non-commercial vehicle in two different states.

They didn't appear to be concerned with my drivers license.

They did check that the trailer was connected properly, configured properly (brakes, lights, etc) and that the load was secured properly. In both cases they had scales, but didn't use them (on me).

I have also driven through states that have signs at the weight scales that require any vehicle with a GVWR of 8,001 lbs or greater to stop at the scales. Again, they didn't care about my drivers license, only that the vehicle and towed load was within limits.

It used to be very hard for a pickup truck & trailer to be legally over 26K. Now days, not so hard.

As a result of the CDL implementation they have nationally defined license requirements defined by vehicle capacity.

Bottom line is if you have the capacity of putting a GVWR/GCVWR of 26,001+ on the road, you need a license to do so.

Some states have decided to enjoy the revenue of stipulating more stringent requirements for non-commercial operators licenses.

I will say that not having the proper license may not be that big of a deal, even in an accident. Probably just a fine.

Not having the proper weight registration (tags), again, likely just a fine.

Not being within the limits of the vehicle manufacturers rated capacity will likely cost you some big :gizmo: if you injure someone.
 
#61 ·
Having just gone through the Class A drivers license experience, I have some thoughts as to why they feel the need to test these drivers for licenses on vehicles with GCWR over 26,001#. My GCWR is 29,800# with the pickup at 9800# and the trailer at 20,000#. You are getting up into some pretty big vehicles and let's face it, we have some pretty bad drivers on the road. In my case, I have a 31ft gooseneck tandem dually flatbed. Overall, I am 55ft long and that is with a regular cab pickup long bed. I can remember when over the road semi's were limited to 55ft overall. Now I just have a pickup and trailer, but all of a sudden, I am in the same size as the big boys used to be, before they got even bigger. They want to make sure you know how to handle big equipment. This is not going to involve a car and a little 5x8 trailer.

It seems a little silly to have to take the vision test and written drivers test all over again, especially since I just renewed my regular Class C drivers license earlier this year. But the driving test makes perfect sense to me. In my case, the test was pretty difficult, but only because I had to take it in the big city in all the traffic, plus it was all left turns with two of them being dual lane left turns with traffic right beside me. That was a real challenge. Otherwise, it was just a stroll around the block, so to speak. Any accident and I would have failed. Afterwards, the observer stated that I passed as it looked like I knew what I was doing and that tells me that they really just wanted to make sure of that before issuing me a license to be able to drive big equipment. And let's face it, when you are 55ft long, you are in big equipment. (I did not tell him that I got my first Chauffeurs license 60 years ago, long before he was even born)

Ever since I bought that trailer 4 years ago, I have been worried as to whether I was legal and my moral compass always wants me to be legal. It took till now to find out what it takes to be legal and that is the point of this whole thread, to educate those who also want to be legal. Having just gone through this whole thing, I want to share with you what this is all about in the hopes that you will not have to go 4 years worried as I was. I long ago figured out what it takes to get the license/registration legal, so that part was already taken care of. The trailer is licensed as 12M+ which is the highest it can be in KS and the pickup is licensed for 24M, which includes the trailer. Sorry to say that we have a lot of people around here who are pulling a big trailer, but have not bother to increase their tow vehicle license accordingly and ignorant as I was, I was in that category until I figured out what it takes to be legal. Most just don't care.

So I have enough capacity to haul my 4066R and some attachments, which is all I really need. Since my tare weight (empty) is 14,000#, that leaves me 10,000# hauling capacity under my 24M vehicle license. The higher the license weight, the more it costs. At the time, it was going to be something like another $135 just to get up to 26M. I didn't ask about the cost for 30M, but will next renewal as now I am curious. This falls under the category of road taxes. Bigger vehicles wear out the roads faster, so they have to pay more taxes.

Dave
 
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