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    6430 trouble

    was changing oil yesterday in my 6430. drained the oil, changed the filter and put plug back in. wife called me home with a problem. went back up later and changed the fuel filters. started it up and was going to grease the fittings. about 5 min. later it shut down. i about got sick to my stomach, never filled the oil up. wasn't knocking when it shut down, was like it ran out of fuel. filled the oil up, tried to get it started, it would turn over, but not start. finally spit and sputtered a couple times and finally started. sounds fine, no ticks or knocks. what would be my next option? never felt so stupid in my life. almost always pulled the keys- not this time. help. thought about an oil analysis. other ideas?
    Last edited by farmer66; 04-08-2018 at 07:47 PM.

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    AlKozak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farmer66 View Post
    was changing oil yesterday in my 6430. drained the oil, changed the filter and put plug back in. wife called me home with a problem. went back up later and changed the fuel filters. started it up and was going to grease the fittings. about 5 min. later it shut down. i about got sick to my stomach, never filled the oil up. wasn't knocking when it shut down, was like it ran out of fuel. filled the oil up, tried to get it started, it would turn over, but not start. finally spit and sputtered a couple times and finally started. sounds fine, no ticks or knocks. what would be my next option? never felt so stupid in my life. almost always pulled the keys- not this time. help. thought about an oil analysis. other ideas?
    I hate it when manure happens. I know how you feel.

    5 minutes without oil is not good. I don't know anything about the design of this engine, but if it has an overhead cam, or solid lifters if it is a pushrod engine, there probably wouldn't be any valve train noise like in many gasoline engines where you can tell instantly if there is no oil pressure.

    A poor man's oil analysis would be to remove and cut open the oil filter. Unfurl the paper element and look for traces of metal. Not finding any doesn't mean that serious damage hasn't been done, but finding some does mean game over. You could just run it and see what happens. Eventually it'll seize or you'll develop a rod knock if you did damage. This carries the risk of a connecting rod breaking and tearing the only salvageable part - the block - apart. IMO if you're going to prophylactically rebuild it that means replacing or servicing just about every rotary and friction surface in the engine: crank, cam, bearings, valve guides, pistons, rings, sleeves. You might be better off economically looking for a salvage unit.

    Al
    Last edited by AlKozak; 04-08-2018 at 08:18 PM.

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    How many hours are on the machine?

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    6430

    1400 hours
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    5 minutes is a long time without oil pressure. I would recommend dropping the oil pan and checking the rod and main bearings. If bearings look good, you lucked out. get some new rod bolts and pan gasket and put it back together and you are fine. If bearings are damaged, then things are not good. Most likely crank will need turning and new bearings, possibly connecting rods if bearings spun in the rods. and maybe align boring the block if main bearings have spun in the block.
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    I wish your welcome to GTT had come under more favorable circumstances.


    First things first. It's hard to not to have the sick feeling in your stomach or to be upset about what happened, but what's done is done and I wouldn't beat yourself up over it. We all make mistakes. It's part of life.

    Essentially, as I see it, you have three choices.

    1.- You can do nothing and hope the engine wasn't damaged, which is a possibility. You may have gotten lucky. It happens....Is it likely? Hard to say, but let's hope so.

    2.- Or, you can tear the engine down and go through it. New bearings, seals, rings, etc. Massive project and whether you can do it yourself or have someone else do it, will determine what you do with the findings. At that point, you have to determine if you find damage, how much do you want to spend on it and how far into it do you go money wise based upon the age and value of the tractor? Is it better to buy a new short block or rebuild yours? Only you can make that decision.

    Also, you could get in there and find some wear but not be sure if it's wear from it's normal life of use up to this point, which there should be some wear depending upon the hours, etc. or due to this incident. You would end up with a "freshened" engine and all questions removed if you do perform the tear down or short block exchange. But it's also going to lighten the wallet significantly in the process.........

    3. - Perhaps I would replace the engine oil pump proactively (assuming the engine isn't going to be torn down) to make sure it wasn't compromised during the period the engine was run without oil in it. That would be the safest way to run the engine as I outlined in my Option 1, without tearing it down.

    Personally, if the engine wasn't demonstrating some concerns such as lower oil pressure, strange noises, higher temps, etc. I likely wouldn't tear it down. I would do;

    Option 1 first

    Option 3 would be my second choice

    and Option 2 would be my last choice......


    If it were mine and it was carrying oil pressure like it always had and didn't have any new "sounds", I would run it with the new oil watching the oil pressure and coolant temps and monitoring very closely for anything out of the ordinary. I would not put it under heavy loads right away. Instead, I would idle it and then progressively increase the engine RPM's very carefully watching the oil pressure.

    Drive it around to see how the engine runs. Watch the engine temps and also obviously for any knocking sounds, etc. If you didn't have low oil pressure, higher temps, rotational noise which didn't exist before, etc., I would likely run it for some time (at least an hour or so) and have the oil analyzed. If you need suggestions for where to send the oil for testing, I am sure GTT members can suggest some labs from their experiences.

    On the flip side, Any sign of trouble, I would shut it down immediately and pursue Option 2. If it didn't knock, have lower pressure or seem down on power or run hot, you may have gotten very lucky. If that's the case, I would go down and purchase a lottery ticket to see if your luck continues.

    Realistically, the oil test is going to show metal components in the oil and it would be a miracle if it didn't. If you haven't had the oil tested before, you really don't have any kind of benchmark from which to work. Also, make sure you write a detailed letter to accompany the oil for testing, explaining what happened and ask them to perform any supplemental tests based upon your unique circumstance so the tests are as useful as possible. I would contact them before sending the oil and see what else they may want you to do or send to make the tests as useful as possible. They may want the oil filter as well based upon the your specific series of events.

    They need to understand why the results will seem out of the ordinary with the oil not having the hours on it which could produce the normal results for the Soot, Nitration, Oxidation or Sulfation tests.

    I would have them perform the specific tests to identity any "particles" and any other contamination based upon the very short life cycle of this oil's use. Then you have a benchmark for future tests to determine is the failure causing the particles is continuing or not.



    Good luck and since this was your first post here on GTT, please make sure to follow up and let us know how your story goes. We won't judge anyone, we simply want to know the results of your experience for when this happens to the next person, they will be able to read through your thread and see how this matter turned out for you. It's how we all learn and benefit from the time spent here on GTT.........


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    Quote Originally Posted by jd110 View Post
    5 minutes is a long time without oil pressure. I would recommend dropping the oil pan and checking the rod and main bearings. If bearings look good, you lucked out. get some new rod bolts and pan gasket and put it back together and you are fine. If bearings are damaged, then things are not good. Most likely crank will need turning and new bearings, possibly connecting rods if bearings spun in the rods. and maybe align boring the block if main bearings have spun in the block.

    Ditto what jd110 stated.

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    I wonder if it shutdown due to lack of fuel? (fuel filter change), or if there is a low oil level or pressure shutdown? Or worse case, bearings seizing to the crank?

    Five minutes seems like a long time to run if it was from the fuel filters change putting air in the fuel system. Are you sure it ran 5 minutes??? Yet lack of easy restart points to this

    Even with the oil drained, some oil remained in the bearing, but how long would it protect the bearings?? At least it was not under load.

    Since the rod bearings are smaller than the main bearings, I think they would fail first So I would do as jd110 suggested and pull the pan and check the rod bearings. If there is no sign of bearing material "smeared" on the crank, I think you're OK. I am guessing the rod bolts are "one time use" since jd110 said to get new ones.

    Good luck, keep us updated with what you decide or find
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    My experience with engines run without oil is that the pistons are the most vulnerable to damage. This makes sense since they are only lubricated by splash and they are "delubricated" on every power stroke. I have seen where a piston has seized and the remaining cylinders continued to function, literally ripping a connecting rod out at the wrist pin and spinning it around hammering everything in its path as the other cylinders continue to fire, putting holes in the block and smashing the camshaft to bits.

    So if you're going to take the trouble to drop the sump and visually check the bearings, remove the head as well and look for scoring.

    Replacing the oil pump absent a complete rebuild is useless advice. Gear pumps are nearly indestructible and a few minutes without oil (or even a load, since there was no oil) will not make a discernible difference in wear.

    One time use bolts are called "torque to yield" fasteners. They are generally made of aluminum alloy and are usually used when joining aluminum to steel or cast iron as the coefficients of thermal expansion of the pieces are very different. They are deliberately deformed by stretching during assembly; hence the one time use. I would not expect them to be used in a bearing assembly since there are no dissimilar metals, but I ain't no mechanical inguneer, so do whatever the manufacturer says to do.

    And if this is all beyond your skills, then find a diesel mechanic to take a look for you. It would be money well spent.

    Al
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    6430 problems

    thanks to everyone for the advice. repair shop came today and is sending a truck to pick it up tomorrow. keeping my fingers crossed
    BigJim55 likes this.

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