[Upset264]

I've been brush hogging. When I start out everything is normal, PTO selector in rear only, PTO RPMs 540. After about half an hour, it varies, my display switches to 2100 RPMs. The mid and rear PTOs are engaged without any operator input. I usually discover this when I try to back up with the brush hog running. From that point on I live with it like that for the day.
Next time out same scenario. The PTO selector is firmly in "rear only". I check it often. I have never intentionally engaged the mid PTO.

Today there's a new wrinkle. The dashboard display began alternating between 540 and 2100. I shut everything down and restarted and everything was normal again. So, I'm perplexed. I guess I'm going to have to call the dealer but I'm afraid they'll take it for a month, start it up a few times, and say everything looks normal. They're not going to brush hog a field for an hour trying to duplicate my problem. I'm wondering if there could be an electrical component to this.

 

[MarkEagleUSA]

Sounds like a bad PTO selector switch on the transaxle, #18 on the drawing.

https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/sidebyside/equipment/1668629/referrer/search/pgId/544387289

 

[kylew]

The mid and rear PTOs are engaged without any operator input.

Explain this. Are you referring to the dash readout switching back and forth, as in your video? Or is the mid-PTO engaged, or trying to engage by itself?
In other words, when the dash switches back and forth, is the mid-PTO physical turning or trying to turn, or do you hear grinding? That would be a sign of a mechanical problem inside the trans. If not, the place to start looking is either the MBR switch going bad (internal plunger sticking) or its wiring harness. Look for cuts/knicks/abrasion. The PTO switch or the ICC are the less likely candidates but are in the circuit as well.

 

[Upset264]

Explain this. Are you referring to the dash readout switching back and forth, as in your video? Or is the mid-PTO engaged, or trying to engage by itself?
In other words, when the dash switches back and forth, is the mid-PTO physical turning or trying to turn, or do you hear grinding? That would be a sign of a mechanical problem inside the trans. If not, the place to start looking is either the MBR switch going bad (internal plunger sticking) or its wiring harness. Look for cuts/knicks/abrasion. The PTO switch or the ICC are the less likely candidates but are in the circuit as well.

The display switching back and forth happened for the first time today. Generally I have the rear pto running and the display at some point switches to reading the mid pto rpms and the reverse cut off kicks in. The rear pto continues to operate. I don’t know if the mid pto is running at that point but all indications are that it is. I do know that if I switch to mid pto only I can hear it running. There has never been any grinding.

 

[dixie460]

Does the lever stay in rear PTO only mode the whole time? If so I'd suspect it's simply a bad MBR switch.

 

[Upset264]

Does the lever stay in rear PTO only mode the whole time? If so I'd suspect it's simply a bad MBR switch.

Yes the lever doesn’t move. Is the MBR switch the one on the transaxle that MarkEagle referred to? I can see it. Is it something I can replace myself? Looks to me like remove left rear tire, unplug wiring, get a wrench in there and take it out. But I don’t want to open a can of worms.

 

[dixie460]

Yes the lever doesn’t move. Is the MBR switch the one on the transaxle that MarkEagle referred to? I can see it. Is it something I can replace myself? Looks to me like remove left rear tire, unplug wiring, get a wrench in there and take it out. But I don’t want to open a can of worms.

I'm not sure where it actually is, just that it's there. But post #9 here shows the wiring to the MBR switch so if you follow that wiring down it will lead you to the actual switch.

Edit: by the way, MBR refers to the PTO selector positions mid, both, rear. Not sure if that is the official name of the part or not.

 

[Upset264]

I'm not sure where it actually is, just that it's there. But post #9 here shows the wiring to the MBR switch so if you follow that wiring down it will lead you to the actual switch.

Edit: by the way, MBR refers to the PTO selector positions mid, both, rear. Not sure if that is the official name of the part or not.

Very helpful information, thanks.
Seems simple enough.
Here's the switch. Looks like easiest access would be from under the left rear fender with the wheel off.

 

[SulleyBear]

Just to be clear, are in fact the Mid PTO SHAFT and the REAR PTO SHAFT both turning at the same time, when Upset's dash is indicating they are? I understand the dash says they are, but is the Mid Shaft actually turning?

When the dash is indicating the Mid PTO shaft is spinning, if you reverse the tractor without using the RIO, does it shut down the entire PTO operation or just the Mid PTO operation, or have no effect on the PTO at all?

I am just trying to make sure the problem is as I understand it to be, that both PTO shafts are turning when only the rear PTO shaft is selected with the selector lever shown at the end of the video..........

Thanks.

 

[SulleyBear]

According to the parts book, the switch is the same for all 1025r's and is part number AT85152 and sells for $104.79.

 

[Upset264]

Well I can’t actually see the mid pto and there’s nothing attached so I don’t know for sure but I believe it’s running. When I reverse, my rear pto shuts down. If not for that I’d probably ignore the issue. All of this with the selector in rear only.

 

[SulleyBear]

Well I can’t actually see the mid pto and there’s nothing attached so I don’t know for sure but I believe it’s running. When I reverse, my rear pto shuts down. If not for that I’d probably ignore the issue. All of this with the selector in rear only.

I would be more concerned about the MID PTO actually being engaged when the selector lever is on the rear only, than I would be concerned about the dash RPM displays, etc. If the switch is defective and telling the dash unit the Mid PTO is working, when in reality its not, then the internal components of the case are likely fine and its a faulty switch.

However, if the Mid PTO and rear PTO are both engaged when the lever is only selecting the rear PTO, that is potentially very troublesome. As there is a slide collar on the shaft and the collar is positioned by the lever which moves the collar with a fork type of mechanical interaction which is number 34 in the parts illustration below, then I would be worried there was an internal component failure and the fork was damaged / broken or something is going on to allow the Mid PTO to actually engage when only the rear should be.

Here is a look at the pieces inside of that case.

Number 34 is the internal part where the PTO shift lever is connected, which determines the PTO shaft selection. This is why i was asking if the Mid PTO was really turning when the lever is on rear only, or if its just the switch which thinks the Mid PTO is spinning when its not.

I would bet the switch is faulty and tricking the unit into thinking the Mid and Rear PTO are both on, when in reality, only the rear is turning. After all, the RIO is all electrical so if the switch THINKS the Mid PTO is turning, reversing the tractor would shut down the PTO, even though in reality, the Mid PTO shaft might not be moving...........I would think that engaging the Mid PTO when the rear is engaged running the rear mower, would result in gear grinding and significant other unpleasantness, which clearly isn't happening.

(Disclosure- I don't use my Mid / Front PTO as I don't have a MMM or a Snow blower front PTO etc. My only experience is using the rear PTO, but the rear / Mid PTO gear style in these cases aren't designed to be engaged when the other is fully spinning)

Hope this make sense.......

 

[Upset264]

I would be more concerned about the MID PTO actually being engaged when the selector lever is on the rear only, than I would be concerned about the dash RPM displays, etc. If the switch is defective and telling the dash unit the Mid PTO is working, when in reality its not, then the internal components of the case are likely fine and its a faulty switch.

However, if the Mid PTO and rear PTO are both engaged when the lever is only selecting the rear PTO, that is potentially very troublesome. As there is a slide collar on the shaft and the collar is positioned by the lever which moves the collar with a fork type of mechanical interaction which is number 34 in the parts illustration below, then I would be worried there was an internal component failure and the fork was damaged / broken or something is going on to allow the Mid PTO to actually engage when only the rear should be.

Here is a look at the pieces inside of that case.

Number 34 is the internal part where the PTO shift lever is connected, which determines the PTO shaft selection. This is why i was asking if the Mid PTO was really turning when the lever is on rear only, or if its just the switch which thinks the Mid PTO is spinning when its not.

I would bet the switch is faulty and tricking the unit into thinking the Mid and Rear PTO are both on, when in reality, only the rear is turning. After all, the RIO is all electrical so if the switch THINKS the Mid PTO is turning, reversing the tractor would shut down the PTO, even though in reality, the Mid PTO shaft might not be moving...........I would think that engaging the Mid PTO when the rear is engaged running the rear mower, would result in gear grinding and significant other unpleasantness, which clearly isn't happening.

(Disclosure- I don't use my Mid / Front PTO as I don't have a MMM or a Snow blower front PTO etc. My only experience is using the rear PTO, but the rear / Mid PTO gear style in these cases aren't designed to be engaged when the other is fully spinning)

Hope this make sense.......

View attachment 805205

Makes a lot of sense and now that I have a better understanding of how everything works I’m more likely to get a switch and put it in myself.

Dealing with the dealer is a hassle. You can’t talk to a human being you have to leave a message and wait for a callback. That’s after you listen to the recorded greeting and menu options. And as for when they’ll fix it, you get in line and they’ll get to it when it’s your turn.

I’m thinking tomorrow I’ll disconnect the driveshaft from the rear pto and engage it while off the tractor then take a peak underneath at the mid to confirm.

 

[SulleyBear]

Makes a lot of sense and now that I have a better understanding of how everything works I’m more likely to get a switch and put it in myself.

Dealing with the dealer is a hassle. You can’t talk to a human being you have to leave a message and wait for a callback. That’s after you listen to the recorded greeting and menu options. And as for when they’ll fix it, you get in line and they’ll get to it when it’s your turn.

I’m thinking tomorrow I’ll disconnect the driveshaft from the rear pto and engage it while off the tractor then take a peak underneath at the mid to confirm.

I bet you will find the rear is turning when the selector is on the rear and the Mid is not and its just the switch acting up.

One other thing to check before diving in too far. When rear mowing, you are likely driving through deeper weeds, tall grass, etc. A few times a year, we have members who knock the neutral switch plug loose, so perhaps your PTO switch wire is loose or just dirty? In fact, there are several different electrical plugs which get disturbed and need attention. That's one major downside to such low ground clearance and no skid pads, etc.

As you know, when electrical things are used and get warm, they can act poorly simply due to the heat or dirty connectors, a poorly connected plug, etc. Make sure the PTO wires are plugged correctly and clean and not displaced even slightly from debris, etc.

It's been awhile, but we usually have half a dozen or so a year who suddenly can't start their tractors because their neutral switch wires are loose, dirty, etc. It's almost always a quick and easy repair and they are on their way. The wires for the PTO are worth checking as well. Perhaps its just as simple. Plus with the switch at $105, I would hate to see you buy one if you don't need it.

Use the electrical contact cleaner and unplug, spray and connect the harness and see if it makes any difference. I really doubt the machine is changing from rear only PTO to both without the selection lever requesting the change. Looking forward to hearing what you find.........

 

[dixie460]

I doubt his mid PTO is actually turning, he says the PTO selector lever doesn't move out of the rear-only position when this happens so if his mid PTO is actually engaged then that would indicate a failure inside the transmission which is rather unlikely. Not impossible, just highly unlikely.

 

[Upset264]

I doubt his mid PTO is actually turning, he says the PTO selector lever doesn't move out of the rear-only position when this happens so if his mid PTO is actually engaged then that would indicate a failure inside the transmission which is rather unlikely. Not impossible, just highly unlikely.

I did a test this morning with the selector in rear only, me in the seat and the pto switch on. As expected the dashboard display indicated that the mid pto was engaged. With a flexible selfie stick I took a video under the operators seat and I can confirm that the mid pto is not turning. So as suggested by others above it appears the problem is with the switch on the transaxle.

 

[SulleyBear]

I did a test this morning with the selector in rear only, me in the seat and the pto switch on. As expected the dashboard display indicated that the mid pto was engaged. With a flexible selfie stick I took a video under the operators seat and I can confirm that the mid pto is not turning. So as suggested by others above it appears the problem is with the switch on the transaxle.
View attachment 805469

Then its certainly an electrical issue, likely the switch and not an internal problem, which is great to hear. Its also not a time critical repair if you can't get to it right away because its really just providing incorrect information about the PTO status and not doing anything which should damage the PTO components.

Glad to hear this, which is what we expected you would find. Now make sure to let us know what you find when you do get a chance to get into the switch and harness....

 

[dixie460]

.... I can confirm that the mid pto is not turning.

This is great news, that means no mechanical problems in your transmission! Just need to get the electrical portion squared away and your machine will be back to normal.

 

[Upset264]

As you know, when electrical things are used and get warm, they can act poorly simply due to the heat or dirty connectors, a poorly connected plug, etc. Make sure the PTO wires are plugged correctly and clean and not displaced even slightly from debris, etc.

With @SulleyBear's suggestion in mind along with @dixie460 's reference to a post explaining how to jump the connection to make the system think it's in rear only, I set out to have a look and decide what to do next. It's very tight quarters back there and I didn't want to get in over my head but I was able to identify the connector and disconnect it. Upon consideration I decided to leave good (bad?) enough alone for now. Not having any contact cleaner I poked at the contacts with a piece of wire and then reconnected the connector. Well surprise, surprise as Gomer used to say. Everything works normally now. Fingers crossed. It rained all night so tomorrow or Sunday I'll take it out for a real test, but for now it seems to be problem solved. Thanks to all who participated.