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Discussion Starter #1
I am at a loss and ready to reach out to the experts!

My 2305 with about 600 hours on it has been acting up for about 2 months. The first instance was about 45 minutes into mowing and the machine shutdown like I turned off the ignition. It would not restart. It did not seem to even try to fire. I presumed it was an issue with the fuel cut-off circuit. I tore into it assuming I had another electrical issue (I replaced the diode a couple years ago). By the time I figured out it was not the diode, the machine also suddenly started. I put it away and when I had time to mow again, I proceeded to completely mow the lawn without issue (about an hour). I then proceeded to do some maintenance (including replacing the fuel filter). When I went to mow again, about 10 minutes into the process, it shuts down again. This time I presume it is an issue with the fuel cut-off solenoid. I removed it to see if it was pulling in, and not only was the solenoid working fine, but the machine would not start with it removed. :banghead:

I reinstalled the solenoid, walked away for a few minutes, and when I returned it started again. Each time this thing has died, I have jumped off the machine and verified that the fuel filter bowl was still full.

Now today, I went out there and it started without issue. I started mowing and a few minutes in it craps out again. Again, just to be sure, I removed the fuel solenoid and tried to start again. Still no luck. I am now confident that the fuel cut-off circuit (both electrical and mechanical) is not causing this shut-down. So now what? I disconnected the fuel line running from the fuel injection pump back up to the fuel tank. When cranking, there is definitely fuel flowing back to the tank. Yet, the machine was not starting. I am at a loss. It was firing, but never enough to continue to run. Fast forward about 2 hours and I managed to get it to run, after stumbling a bit, it smoothed out and ran long enough to put it in the garage.

Needless to say, I have no confidence in this machine. My yard is hilly enough that I almost had to leave the tractor out in the yard because my golf car didn't have enough traction to pull it up to the driveway. I am not sure what to do next. I need to clean-up leaves and need to be able to trust this thing for snow clean-up this year. I hate intermittent issues. What about a mechanical fuel system could be so intermittent? I considered the possibility of debris in the tank, but in each case, the bowl was full. I turned out the fuel shut-off once just to see if maybe there was a flow issue through the petcock. One of the times when it started but was running rough, I was able to watch it pull down the fuel level in that bowl. It happens (and the refilled) slowly enough that I am fairly confident I would be able to see if that was the reason for the shutdown. I really don't know what to check next.

Thanks for reading this ramble.

Thoughts?

Lee
 

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I am not certain of the logic of your fuel circuit but you said there was a fuel shutoff solenoid, and you could verify the pull current?
It sounds like you believe the fuel should flow when the solenoid is in its resting position (normal state).
Would you think it may make more sense if electric power applied (made position) would be the more reasonable condition to allow fuel flow?
Try checking for voltage (and magnetism) at the solenoid when you are running and when it dies see if you still have both?

Or am I mis reading this and you literally bypassed the shut off and still no love?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I am not certain of the logic of your fuel circuit but you said there was a fuel shutoff solenoid, and you could verify the pull current?
It sounds like you believe the fuel should flow when the solenoid is in its resting position (normal state).
Would you think it may make more sense if electric power applied (made position) would be the more reasonable condition to allow fuel flow?
Try checking for voltage (and magnetism) at the solenoid when you are running and when it dies see if you still have both?

Or am I mis reading this and you literally bypassed the shut off and still no love?
Sorry if I confused things. The fuel should flow when the solenoid is energized. But since it is a pull in function, it "releases" the lever to allow fuel to flow. As such, removing the solenoid allows me to see the solenoid function and at the same time should allow the fuel to flow.

This is a snip from the shop manual (I think that their copy protection is keeping me from copying the text).

Fuel theory.JPG

Lee
 

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I don't own your model of tractor, so I don't know how it works. But I've seen similar problems from the seat switch. Check the integrity of the wire going to this switch. There may be an intermittent in this circuit that occasionally acts up and shuts everything down.
 
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I don't own your model of tractor, so I don't know how it works. But I've seen similar problems from the seat switch. Check the integrity of the wire going to this switch. There may be an intermittent in this circuit that occasionally acts up and shuts everything down.
I agree with Keane, I would short or bypass the switch and try it.

Doug
 
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Discussion Starter #6
Doug and Keane,
Thanks for the tip. That would definitely explain it dying out while mowing. The safety logic on my tractor enables the seat switch when the PTO is engaged or the tractor is in gear. In each of these cases, though, during the attempts to restart I ended up off the tractor watching the fuel bowl. The PTO and gear selector were in their respective locations the whole time, when it didn't start and then miraculously did. When this safety circuit is enabled, it removes power from the solenoid, and each case after troubleshooting I determined that the solenoid was getting power and working.

Could the restart issue be a result of the seat switch killing the full throttle loaded motor? I know that is tough on a motor, but in the past when it happened (i.e., I forgot to clear one of the faults before lifting off of the seat, it always restarted without issue.

Another snip from the shop manual. Am I missing something?

Fuel electrical theory.JPG

Lee
 

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Update but still not solved

So, I left the hood and sides off so that I would have quicker access to troubleshoot. I have new data. This time, when it died, I could see the filter housing quickly enough to see it refilling. It appears that I have a fuel flow issue from the tank. I don't understand, though, why it takes so long to get the tractor to restart after the fuel has returned to the bowl.

I removed the tank and dumped (very new fuel). Prior to this tankful, I ran the machine down quite low. Good news, I know this was all fresh fuel w/Optilube. The bad news is, I ran the tank down very low which may have contributed to some sort of junk being disturbed.

I captured the fuel towards the bottom on the tank in this pan. There were two notable pieces in the fuel. These pictures are after adding more fuel into the tank and splashing it around.

IMG_20181117_163853.jpg
IMG_20181117_163336.jpg

The rectangular piece feels slimey. I presume this could block the fuel outlet. Of course, the insect baffles me!

Now, I have rinsed the tank several times. Is there anything else I should do before reinstalling?

Meanwhile, on a 13 year old machine, I am inclined to replace some fuel lines. Looking at the JDparts site, they list some specific part numbers for these fuel lines. Are they preformed? The line from the tank to the filter looks like it is not formed and does not make any sharp turns. I can also, however, look through and have confidence that it is clean and does not appear to be collapsing or crumbling. However, it is clearly showing some signs of aging at the ends. Thoughts?

IMG_20181118_075426.jpg
IMG_20181118_075439.jpg

Meanwhile, I definitely feel like this needed attention. But I am not confident that this is all of my issue. Either way, this is worth doing.

So, in summary, what else do I want to do to the inside of this tank?

Do I want to wait for OEM fuel lines or go to the parts store and just buy bulk line?

Thanks,

Lee
 

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Do I want to wait for OEM fuel lines or go to the parts store and just buy bulk line?
me--i would go get regular gas line at the Napa store--or whatever u got there. as long as its regular gas line-i think.

i doubt the line u would get at jd is any different.

now's the time to change them out-since ya got it all tore apart--imo. good luck-hope this helps ya out.:bigthumb:
 
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Discussion Starter #9
Thanks Jim. The JD like has a very pronounced woven covering on the outside. I also measured the outside diameter of the hose bib on the fuel filter housing at .290". This is small for 5/16" line but fairly large for 1/4" line. I guess I need to cut that piece in half and measure the inside of the existing line make sure I match the diameter.
 

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I don't own your model of tractor, so I don't know how it works. But I've seen similar problems from the seat switch. Check the integrity of the wire going to this switch. There may be an intermittent in this circuit that occasionally acts up and shuts everything down.
This is precisely why I keep a NEW spare seat switch in my spare parts kit. Very easy to swap and eliminate as a possible source. Plus the seat switches are inexpensive to purchase and take quite a bit of bouncing around under the seat. It's cheap insurance for a the low cost to have a spare.

So, I left the hood and sides off so that I would have quicker access to troubleshoot. I have new data. This time, when it died, I could see the filter housing quickly enough to see it refilling. It appears that I have a fuel flow issue from the tank. I don't understand, though, why it takes so long to get the tractor to restart after the fuel has returned to the bowl.

I removed the tank and dumped (very new fuel). Prior to this tankful, I ran the machine down quite low. Good news, I know this was all fresh fuel w/Optilube. The bad news is, I ran the tank down very low which may have contributed to some sort of junk being disturbed.

I captured the fuel towards the bottom on the tank in this pan. There were two notable pieces in the fuel. These pictures are after adding more fuel into the tank and splashing it around.



The rectangular piece feels slimey. I presume this could block the fuel outlet. Of course, the insect baffles me!

Now, I have rinsed the tank several times. Is there anything else I should do before reinstalling?

Meanwhile, on a 13 year old machine, I am inclined to replace some fuel lines. Looking at the JDparts site, they list some specific part numbers for these fuel lines. Are they preformed? The line from the tank to the filter looks like it is not formed and does not make any sharp turns. I can also, however, look through and have confidence that it is clean and does not appear to be collapsing or crumbling. However, it is clearly showing some signs of aging at the ends. Thoughts?



Meanwhile, I definitely feel like this needed attention. But I am not confident that this is all of my issue. Either way, this is worth doing.

So, in summary, what else do I want to do to the inside of this tank?

Do I want to wait for OEM fuel lines or go to the parts store and just buy bulk line?

Thanks,

Lee
If you buy bulk fuel line, buy very good grade fuel line for diesel fuel use. Make sure someone doesn't sell you "rubber line" which might be used for vacuum lines or other non fuel purposes. I would tend to get the OEM fuel lines just to make sure I have 100% the correct item and it will fit properly and should last another 15 years or more. But in a pinch, dedicated fuel line will work as long as there aren't formed bends, otherwise the line might crimp if you use bulk fuel line in it's place.

Intermittent failures can be tricky to locate......they take a systemic approach to eliminating possible culprits.

The fuel shutoff switch tends to fail and it doesn't allow the tractor to start. You don't hear that "CLICK" when you turn the key is usually what happens. These tend to either work or they don't. You can operate the shut off manually to verify it's function, so if it doesn't activate, you can actually move the shut off by hand to get the machine to run. But you might also need to shut it off by hand if you manipulate it. It's part of the ignition circuit and the tractor won't run if its unplugged, as you found.

If your tractor has a fuse panel, I would check to make sure the connections are all clean. Sometimes, over time, the dirt and dust from mowing will provide some problems if it gets into electrical connectors, etc. Just carefully use compressed air and pull the fuses and make sure the contacts are clean. Use the appropriate electrical contact cleaner to make sure everything has a good contact.

The fuel line with the protective cover is likely a formed line. Its hard to tell from the picture. I would definitely be replacing a line which looks like that certainly since you already have it off.......Notice how the line is cracked in the photo? I have seen these lines get weak and internally collapse during use restricting fuel flow. A new line will eliminate that issue for sure.

Make sure your fuel tank is venting correctly, either through the fuel cap or if it has a designated fuel tank vent. Clean your fuel cap and make sure if it has vent holes, they are allowing air through unrestricted.

I would test your fuel pumps output as well. A sign of a failing fuel pump can be when the tractor often quits while you are going up a hill. Gravity will often provide adequate flow down the hill. Sounds like you have hilly terrain. Do you recall if the tractor quit on the upside or downside of the hills?

I haven't looked up your tractor in the parts search but it seems like the fuel pump is attached to your Injector pump. Those are a diaphragm type "mechanical pump" if it's the one I think it is. It's not an electric pump in the tank like some others. But it seems like there was another thread on here about the diaphragm pumps losing prime or having an inconsistent fuel flow issues.

It seems like you either have or have access to the Technical Service Manual for your machine. Check out the fuel pump section and how to test the fuel flow volume to test your pump. These are pricey so you want to check it before just replacing it. It doesn't seem like these "manual" fuel pumps (verses the in tank electric pumps) have near the failure rate so testing the pump is in order.

Make sure to replace or at a minimum, clean the fuel pickup on the end of the pick up line in the tank, its usually a mesh unit slid over the end of the fuel pick up line to keep the fly out of the line. Over the years, the diesel will cause these to collapse and restrict fuel flow. Plus they can get a gummy coating on them from fuel and sediment in the bottom of the tank over time. At a minimum, take it out and inspect it and clean it real well. Just make sure it's not restrictive more than it should be.

It could also be a bad ground in the electrical system, which I say that because the tractor seems to quit after its warmed up. At times, bad grounds build heat because of the corrosion and restrict the current flow. Carefully check the battery cables as they can corrode under the cable coating near the battery terminal. If there is corrosion or the battery cable has been bent severely, replace the battery cables as they can cause some strange things to happen intermittently.

Please make sure to post a follow up as to what you find so it makes this thread really helpful for the next person with a similar machine issue. Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
SulleyBear,
As usual, thanks for the thorough response. I do have the shop manual. I posted a couple snips regarding the electrical function of the fuel system. I am fairly certain I have eliminated the fuel cut-off circuit with my troubleshooting.

This is a molded fuel tank. I am not sure how I will be able to get to, remove, or clean the pick up. I am not home now but the only way I can imagine looking into this tank will be to try using the cheap boroscope that I have. I will give it a shot. The other way I may be able to gain more access would be to remove the fuel sender assembly. If I have any luck with the camera, I can make a judgement call.

I will update as I proceed.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 

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I guess the up side of mowing a very rough pasture is the continuous jostling of the fuel. Five years ago I decommissioned a leaking underground heating oil tank. (Dirt and ground water leaking in). I got the bright idea to run about fifty gallons through my 2305. I got lucky and it only produced a couple of nasty looking fuel filters and never gave me a problem. I expected it to. On a regular service appointment my dealer said that they had never seen a worse looking filter, Usually I’m not very lucky.
 
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Back in business

I reinstalled the tank with a new piece of fuel line to the filter housing. I also put in another new filter, for good measure. I have now run the machine for over 2 hours with no symptoms. I wish I felt more confident that I identified the issue. Changing out the fuel, flushing the tank, replacing the fuel line, cleaning the fuel shut-off valve, and replacing the filter (all in this last round of troubleshooting) is what I would call shotgun troubleshooting. In the end, I am hopeful that I am out of the woods.

Thanks for the input.

Lee
 

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So, I left the hood and sides off so that I would have quicker access to troubleshoot. I have new data. This time, when it died, I could see the filter housing quickly enough to see it refilling. It appears that I have a fuel flow issue from the tank. I don't understand, though, why it takes so long to get the tractor to restart after the fuel has returned to the bowl.

I removed the tank and dumped (very new fuel). Prior to this tankful, I ran the machine down quite low. Good news, I know this was all fresh fuel w/Optilube. The bad news is, I ran the tank down very low which may have contributed to some sort of junk being disturbed.

I captured the fuel towards the bottom on the tank in this pan. There were two notable pieces in the fuel. These pictures are after adding more fuel into the tank and splashing it around.

View attachment 657332
View attachment 657334

The rectangular piece feels slimey. I presume this could block the fuel outlet. Of course, the insect baffles me!

Now, I have rinsed the tank several times. Is there anything else I should do before reinstalling?




Meanwhile, on a 13 year old machine, I am inclined to replace some fuel lines. Looking at the JDparts site, they list some specific part numbers for these fuel lines. Are they preformed? The line from the tank to the filter looks like it is not formed and does not make any sharp turns. I can also, however, look through and have confidence that it is clean and does not appear to be collapsing or crumbling. However, it is clearly showing some signs of aging at the ends. Thoughts?

View attachment 657336
View attachment 657338

Meanwhile, I definitely feel like this needed attention. But I am not confident that this is all of my issue. Either way, this is worth doing.

So, in summary, what else do I want to do to the inside of this tank?

Do I want to wait for OEM fuel lines or go to the parts store and just buy bulk line?

Thanks,

Lee

Those slimy black chunks in your fuel are Black Algae. A common problem with todays bio fuel. The only way to cure that problem is to use a biocide available at most auto parts stores. I use a product called Killem, I have had this same problem on my diesel motorhome. That stuff clogs fuel filters right now. Fill your tank, and use the recommended amount of the biocide as the initial treatment, then use the maintenance dose on each refill. Keep lots of fuel filters on hand as they will clog repeatedly with the dead algae. After 2 or 3 filter changes, you will be good and hopefully back to routine maintenance on filter changes.


Rinsing the tank helps, but wont cure the problem and get rid of all of the algae. It likes to grow in the tank above the fuel level in any moisture that may be in your fuel.
 
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Those slimy black chunks in your fuel are Black Algae. A common problem with todays bio fuel. The only way to cure that problem is to use a biocide available at most auto parts stores. I use a product called Killem, I have had this same problem on my diesel motorhome. That stuff clogs fuel filters right now. Fill your tank, and use the recommended amount of the biocide as the initial treatment, then use the maintenance dose on each refill. Keep lots of fuel filters on hand as they will clog repeatedly with the dead algae. After 2 or 3 filter changes, you will be good and hopefully back to routine maintenance on filter changes.


Rinsing the tank helps, but wont cure the problem and get rid of all of the algae. It likes to grow in the tank above the fuel level in any moisture that may be in your fuel.
The weird part is, I have never (knowingly) put biodiesel in my tractor. That is really not a thing around here. I can't recall seeing any station in my area hawking that crap. I just traded my diesel pickup after 10 years and was always watching out for biodiesel as the 6.4L powerstroke really didn't like that fuel (would only tolerate up to B15). As a result, I am very aware of it. That said, I am willing to treat the fuel. That Killem stuff looks to only come in a $35 pint size. Of course, 1280 gallons would be a lifetime of fuel in my 2305. Have you ever seen smaller quantities of that stuff? Do you know the shelf life of the additive?

Thanks for the input. I definitely want to prevent this in the future.

Lee
 

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The weird part is, I have never (knowingly) put biodiesel in my tractor. That is really not a thing around here. I can't recall seeing any station in my area hawking that crap. I just traded my diesel pickup after 10 years and was always watching out for biodiesel as the 6.4L powerstroke really didn't like that fuel (would only tolerate up to B15). As a result, I am very aware of it. That said, I am willing to treat the fuel. That Killem stuff looks to only come in a $35 pint size. Of course, 1280 gallons would be a lifetime of fuel in my 2305. Have you ever seen smaller quantities of that stuff? Do you know the shelf life of the additive?

Thanks for the input. I definitely want to prevent this in the future.

Lee
I do not know the shelf life, and the pint is the smallest. I treat a diesel motorhome, a diesel pickup, and a 1026r, and have not used 1/4 if the pint in a year.
 
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The weird part is, I have never (knowingly) put biodiesel in my tractor. That is really not a thing around here. I can't recall seeing any station in my area hawking that crap. I just traded my diesel pickup after 10 years and was always watching out for biodiesel as the 6.4L powerstroke really didn't like that fuel (would only tolerate up to B15). As a result, I am very aware of it. That said, I am willing to treat the fuel. That Killem stuff looks to only come in a $35 pint size. Of course, 1280 gallons would be a lifetime of fuel in my 2305. Have you ever seen smaller quantities of that stuff? Do you know the shelf life of the additive?

Thanks for the input. I definitely want to prevent this in the future.

Lee
Quote from the manufacturer,

Once opened and exposed to air, the shelf life of Killem is about one year. The active ingredient in this biocide is "Sodium-dithiocarbamate" which is a salt and will tend to crystalize, over a period of time, once exposed to airborne contaminants. The shelf life could last longer if kept tightly sealed and in a cool, dry environment. The product still can be used past one year, albeit it will not be as effective as fresh product.
 
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