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240V Outlet Question

4K views 32 replies 13 participants last post by  arlen 
#1 ·
So I want to learn how to weld within 6-12 months. I’m looking at also getting some beer brewing equipment that requires 240 as well.

So here is what’s in the shop (done by the PO whom built the shop and house):





So keep in mind I know next to nothing about electric. But it appears it’s a 60A circuit.


Here is what the brewery company says for requirements:




So I’m no expert but it appears what I have is not the 14-30 or 14-50 outlet?

Is that outlet in my shop an old version? Or something specific to welders (I’m speculating as I have no idea what PO used it for)? Would I need two outlets (one for a welder and one for brewing equipment)? Silly me I thought 240V outlets were all the same….[emoji2371]
 
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#2 ·
What you have is a NEMA 6-50R 50 amp outlet. It's a standard outlet that was used for kitchen ranges for years. Lots of welding setups used them too. It's an older outlet from the days of "We'll give you 2 hots and Neutral!".

That has since been replaced by the 4-prong outlets. So now you get 2 hot legs, a neutral AND a ground wire.

And yes, you'll need two different outlets for your desired setup. But that might be easier than it sounds.
 
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#9 ·
What you have is a NEMA 6-50R 50 amp outlet. It's a standard outlet that was used for kitchen ranges for years. Lots of welding setups used them too. It's an older outlet from the days of "We'll give you 2 hots and Neutral!".

That has since been replaced by the 4-prong outlets. So now you get 2 hot legs, a neutral AND a ground wire.

And yes, you'll need two different outlets for your desired setup. But that might be easier than it sounds.
I don’t think that is a range outlet. The OP’s plug is 250 volt only (2 hots and a ground) not the 250/125 volt range plugs that had 2 hots and a neutral.
It would be the correct plug for something that only has line to line loads( such as a welder) unlike ranges and dryers that have both line to line loads and line to neutral loads
 
#3 ·
They are all fairly different, but accomplish the same thing. 110v on two of the leads = 220v with a ground and potentially a neutral.

The breaker is to protect the wiring, not the device connected to the outlet. - So long as the wiring is sized correctly (wire gauge and length of run) for the breaker, I wouldn't worry about the specific receptacle plug on the end.
 
#4 ·
So a current welder wouldn’t be able to use the 14-30 or 14-50 outlet the brewing equipment requires?

Based on the statement above since it’s a 60A circuit I could just get the outlet changed? I’d like to have the 15-50 outlet for the brewing equipment since what I have won’t work at all.

I assume an electrician would know all of this of course but I’m curious what all I’ll need the electrician to do!

So what’s the outlet that 240 welders use? Is that standardized in the welder industry? Or would it be specific to the welder manufacturer?


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#7 ·
So a current welder wouldn’t be able to use the 14-30 or 14-50 outlet the brewing equipment requires?

Based on the statement above since it’s a 60A circuit I could just get the outlet changed? I’d like to have the 15-50 outlet for the brewing equipment since what I have won’t work at all.

I assume an electrician would know all of this of course but I’m curious what all I’ll need the electrician to do!

So what’s the outlet that 240 welders use? Is that standardized in the welder industry? Or would it be specific to the welder manufacturer?


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My Welder uses a 6-50. I also run my tablesaw off that outlet with an adapter, the TS is 6-20. I'm sure you can find an adapter to fit what you need, so long as your brewing equipment doesn't require a neutral. However if it does (My hot tub does for example) - getting an electrician in to swap it out (and potentially run that neutral if it's not there) and then when you get a welder, just get the correct plug put on the welder to fit your receptacle. - not to over simplify it, but its just two 110v leads and a ground + neutral (if there).

-Note: 110v, 220, or any electric service can be deadly... - If you're not comfortable playing with the juice, please don't! 😁
 
#5 ·
There are different types of welders and their electrical needs vary. So you'll need to match up an outlet with whatever welder you choose to go with. That said, if you have an electrician install both a 14-30 and 14-50 outlet you'd probably be covered (but some welders only require a 120v outlet so ya never know!)

There is a chance that this is just a matter if changing out the outlet. But my guess is they'll need to run new cable from the breaker box to wherever you want the outlets. If that distance isn't very far it isn't an issue.
 
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#6 ·
You can also use or make an adapter. It’s not a big deal as long as you know what you’re doing.

When I wired in my outlets, I pulled a nuetral into the box just so I could change it if need be. Two hots and a ground is what most welders need.
 
#10 ·
It was a range or even a dryer plug from years ago. Before anyone cared that a ground was not a current carrying conductor or that if you had a neutral you didn't need a ground.
 
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#33 · (Edited)
That IS NOT a range plug from any era. The OP's plug has 2 hots and a ground. The old 3 prong range and dryer plugs had 2 hots and a neutral...no equipment ground. Code used to allow the neutral to be bonded chassis of the appliance so it would be grounded. Those plugs are fundamentally different than what the OP has. The older 3 prong range/dryer plugs are designed such that all 3 terminals are isolated from ground (like the metal frame of the receptacle). Also you will not see a green screw for one of the 3 conductors. All 3 wires are designed as current carrying conductors.
They will be marked for a dual voltage like 240/120

In the OP's receptacle, it is marked for a single voltage. It has 2 hots and a ground...no neutral. You will find that the ground terminal is bonded to the receptacle metal frame, and will have a terminal marked "ground" or similar. It is made for 240 volt line to line loads only.

An old dryer or range had 2 hots and a neutral. A welder has 2 hots and a ground

They are not interchangeable at all.
 
#13 ·
You can see in post #8 I fully admit to not knowing what I’m doing and will hire an electrician lol. I can fly a jet but haven’t a clue about electrical! One of the many things I’d like to learn but besides going to a trade school not sure how I could [emoji3]

Kinda the same predicament I’m in on wanting to learn to weld. I’ve checked out local community colleges for welding classes….not much luck so far (what I found is just too far away to justify). Having two kids age 1 and 4 it may be impossible to “go back to school” right now anyway! Figured I could use the GI bill to pay for it. Don’t really need to be a “certified” welder but I think I would enjoy the technical aspect of learning in a classroom setting. I may have to resort to “online” / YouTube learning and/or if I find a friend that knows what they’re doing. I don’t think I know anyone that welds…but maybe I do and don’t realize it….


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#14 ·
No one asked what the wire size or type is feeding the outlet (unless I missed it?), that is just as important as the outlet type.
 
#15 ·
Excellent point. I run my Millermatic 211 MIG welder via 12 gauge wire, from a 25 amp breaker, to the outlet pictured below. Run is about 30 feet. This is not large enough wire for continuous service, but is allowed for intermittent service. For continuous service I believe I would need to run 6 gauge wire. I have all the outlets in the barn labeled with their breaker information - something I picked up while in the Navy on ships. Point is your welder is intermittent service, but the brewing equipment will likely require a significantly larger wire for continuous service.
Audio equipment Font Wood Electronic device Gadget
 
#17 ·
tankerpilot01

There a wealth of information in books, I read all the time.
 
#20 ·
@tankerpilot01 - Yea, with materials being really high currently, the longer the more expensive. Since you've got a panel out there and there's a lot of room in it, adding another breaker or two isn't going to break the bank. Spend the cash now to get what you for power if you're going to bring in an electrician to do it. - I did similar in my garage and it's been an absolute wonderful addition. I've got a 3HP dust collector, 5HP air compressor, 3HP tablesaw and a 200amp welder all on 220v circuits. (Welder and TS share one outlet - at different times) and 4 additional 20amp 110v circuits so lights have their own, CNC controller on one, CNC spindle another and a general for everything else.

Is that a 100amp main?
 
#21 ·
@tankerpilot01 - Yea, with materials being really high currently, the longer the more expensive. Since you've got a panel out there and there's a lot of room in it, adding another breaker or two isn't going to break the bank. Spend the cash now to get what you for power if you're going to bring in an electrician to do it. - I did similar in my garage and it's been an absolute wonderful addition. I've got a 3HP dust collector, 5HP air compressor, 3HP tablesaw and a 200amp welder all on 220v circuits. (Welder and TS share one outlet - at different times) and 4 additional 20amp 110v circuits so lights have their own, CNC controller on one, CNC spindle another and a general for everything else.

Is that a 100amp main?
Honestly I’ve been in the house a year and I have no clue if it’s 100A. Would it say up there by the main switch or how do I tell?


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#24 · (Edited)
Well, I am in Australia where it is illegal to do your own electrical work other than plug-in something! And who knows the way our gov't thinks soon we might have to get a professional to do the plugging for us! :rolleyes::LOL:
Anyway, all jokes aside, I have been saved by a new Earth Leakage Switch. I guess you guys in The US call it "The Big Breaker". I didn't even know the shed roof was leaking down the wall and dripping onto the back of the power point I was using. I plugged in the tool and switched it on. My hand was thrown off the switch and everything went dark and very silent. Stupid me had to try that again just to be sure!! :rolleyes:o_O And YES, indeed, there was something wrong with the power point!
So effectively the Earth Leakage Switch saved me TWICE. :whistle: Well if I had been killed the first time there would not have been a second time. :oops:

This is no laughing matter. Electricity kills. It is one thing to have a bit of background info on what you will be talking to your professional electrical tradie about. It is another thing to attempt to do ANY of the work yourself unless qualified. Or to take shortcuts due to cost or time constraints and try to fix up an old system.
As one post here said you don't want to find out during the autopsy that a new circuit breaker would have saved the person's life.

Old wiring and circuit boards are a real hazard. Rodents may have chewed the wires, corrosion gets in, rooves leak, rubber outer coating perishes, new appliances require more/higher current rating or different types of electricity (ie Stepped power profile). None of this has been protected against or designed for in old power boards. Plus these days many workshop tools require 15amp outlets and fuses anyway, which means bigger wires to the workshop in the first place. Otherwise you will overheat the existing 10amp wiring and cause a fire that insurance will not pay out on.

If you have the space on the old board, providing the actual material the board is made from still meets safety standards, add a whole new set of circuit breakers and earth leakage switches to it and disconnect the old system at the parent power board at your house or where ever it is. Your electrician will know what to do.
If you were in this country and someone was hurt while using your installation, you would automatically be charged with manslaughter or attempted manslaughter. Not knowing is no defence in this country. No-one wants to have such a wrap sheet. It would ruin your life completely.

Renewing the electrical circuitry around the farm is surely one of the biggest investments you will make after buying the property. However, it IS an investment; in the safe continuation of your life and the lives of all those around you who will also use that power system.
I wish you well finding the best electrician you possibly can. They surely are worth their weight in gold.
 
#28 ·
I too have similar interests ( and have recently wired in 3 30amp circuits in my new garage ) and I have a question, what electric brewing solution are you going with? The ones I have looked at seem to be fine running as low as 20amp on a 240v circuit. I wired in 30amp to cover any welding requirements, runs are shorter than 12 ft and are all 10 guage wiring ( 4 plug, with neutral and ground ). Code wise, I believe I am good for continuous use. It's also a 200amp feed just to the garage. Wasn't that much more than going 100amp, go big or go home :)
 
#30 ·
For you electric trained folks out there, I read that electric circuits don't "use up" electrons as the current flows along a circuit. And I have read that the electrons just move around the circuit. I am having a difficult time picturing a bunch of electrons moving round and round a circuit, like NASCAR racers on an oval circuit. Is this really how electric current works?

And maybe I'm a bit slow, but it took me about 70 years to figure out that the electrons move from the negative (ground) terminal on a car battery to the positive terminal. It makes sense now, just looking at basic electrical physics, but why isn't the positive terminal the ground?
 
#31 ·
For you electric trained folks out there, I read that electric circuits don't "use up" electrons as the current flows along a circuit. And I have read that the electrons just move around the circuit. I am having a difficult time picturing a bunch of electrons moving round and round a circuit, like NASCAR racers on an oval circuit. Is this really how electric current works?
Instead of NASCAR, think of an electric circuit the same way you'd think of water plumbing. Water gets pumped into the system. It doesn't get "used up" within the plumbing; If it did you'd never get water at the tap in your kitchen.

And maybe I'm a bit slow, but it took me about 70 years to figure out that the electrons move from the negative (ground) terminal on a car battery to the positive terminal. It makes sense now, just looking at basic electrical physics, but why isn't the positive terminal the ground?
The positive-to-negative flow was how those who originally figured out how to harness electricity thought it worked. It's known as "conventional current" theory. It took a while for people to figure out that that wasn't how it actually works. But it doesn't really matter because as long as you use either theory consistently, the circuits will work either way. Most systems haven't been changed to electron flow theory (negative-to-positive) wiring because most people learned electricity the exact same way that you did. No one wants to force everyone to "re-learn" electricity so it just lives on.
 
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