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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi Folks,

On the weekend I sprung a hydrolic leak. There was hydrolic fluid everywhere under my tractor. Once I got things cleaned up I was able to narrow down where the fluid was leaking from. I found that it was coming from a bolt going through a banjo fitting on a line that goes to the front of the tractor. The bolt that runs through there is hollow with a screen in it. I'm going to assume that its for the power steering. Anyways in doing some reading and research I found out that it's not unheard of for the copper crush washers to fail causing a leak. Off to my dealer I went to get some washers. Sadly they sold me the wrong washers which caused me to over torque the bolt breaking it off in the pump. Thankfully I was able to get that out without much hassle. Back to my dealer to get a new bolt and the proper crush washers. I've now reinstalled the new bolt with two new proper washers and it is still leaking. The leak is not spraying out but more of a constant drip. I'm nervous about over torquing the bolt again and breaking it.

Here are some pics of were the bolt is located. Wasn't the easiest thing to get at.

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Is there a trick to getting copper crush washers to seal or a better way of going about this?

Shane
 

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How are the mating surfaces on the fitting and rockshaft housing? Is there a burr? Do you have access to a torque wrench? With a TW you'll know the bolt is tight without risking over-torquing it. :good2:

And :wgtt:
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks for the welcome. I've been a lurker on this forum for quite a while (3 years if you can believe it!). It has been a great resource and helped me select my tractor.

When I wiped down the surfaces and felt with my fingers didn't feel any burrs. I do have a torque wrench and when I got the new bolt I asked the service department at the dealer what the specs where on it. They said 40 ft lbs. That's what I started with but it still leaked. Now I'm not 100% confident they gave me the correct specs on that bolt but given that it's hollow it does seem reasonable.

Shane
 

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Not for nuttin' but... Are those crush washers flat on one side? If they are, the flat side goes up against the bolt.

I hod one of those on the oil pan of my old Subaru and if I put them on backwards it'd leak. I didn't even know there was a "backwards" until the service guy at the dealership told me.
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Well I just checked the three washers that I have left in my 5 pack that I bought and I think you are correct. One side does feel very slightly rounded. And likewise I've never heard of a backwards on a washer before and with the difference on these washers being very slight I would have never noticed.

Sadly I just went out and reversed the one that was on there and it still leaked. So I tried a new washer on the leaky side. First with the round side towards the fitting then with it towards the housing. Both times it leaked but the leak was always on the rounded side of the washer. Meaning when the round side was first towards the fitting the leak was out from the housing and dripping from the fitting. Then when the round side was towards the housing it was running directly down the housing. I wonder if I got the washer wrong the first time and they are one time use type things.

So should the way it goes be: Housing - Washer Round Side - Washer Flat Side - Fitting - Washer Round Side - Washer Flat Side - Bolt Head.

The red text is where it's always leaking. So I must have gotten lucky and put the washer in the correct direction on the outside of the fitting.

I'm down to two washers now if they are one time use so I guess I could try it both ways one time and see what happens :)

Shane
 

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I would think they are a one time use. The rounded part is crush built into the washer. You might want to get a good light and a check a little closer at the two mating surfaces before you waste another washer.
 

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Did you verify the part number of the washer or did he just hand you some that look close? There are several different sizes of these washers and they are very close in diameter. When they installed my loader they used one just slightly larger and it leaked. Make sure both washers are suppose to be the same part number, they were on the fitting I had. But I've seen p!laces where two different washers were used.

Make sure its the washer and not a cracked line, clean it up good and look close make sure fluid is not running down from higher up. If everything is correct I might try annealing one of your old washers. Heat it up cherry red with a propane torch careful not to melt it. Drop it in cold water, this will anneal copper and make it very soft, might give a better seal. A new washer should come in an annealed state and be soft, that's why they don't reuse them they become hardened from working or squishing the copper.
 

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Welcome to GTT hobiga.
Good Thread, thanks for posting it. It also seems with your DIY experience we can all benefit with you being on GTT. I know I just did.:thumbup1gif:
 

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Thinking here....
Do the copper washers need annealing before use? Too tight is not always better either.
 

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Most copper crush gaskets, if not all, are annealed ready for use. Annealing the copper makes it soft and ready to crush again. It was common practice in aviation to anneal spark plug gaskets prior to installation. The proper technique was to heat them up until you saw the dramatic color change (purplish blue) and let them cool in the ambient air. If you shock cooled them by dunking in water or such, you just tempered them and made them harder. Slow cool down is key.

I'd bet that any washers you buy for these purposes today are already annealed and need nothing from the end user to put in service. :good2:
 

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Most copper crush gaskets, if not all, are annealed ready for use. Annealing the copper makes it soft and ready to crush again. It was common practice in aviation to anneal spark plug gaskets prior to installation. The proper technique was to heat them up until you saw the dramatic color change (purplish blue) and let them cool in the ambient air. If you shock cooled them by dunking in water or such, you just tempered them and made them harder. Slow cool down is key.

I'd bet that any washers you buy for these purposes today are already annealed and need nothing from the end user to put in service. :good2:
So maybe tightening too much could be distorting the washer?
 

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Distorting the washer, at least a little bit, is exactly how a crush washer works. It fills in the gaps perfectly. If you smash it down too much, there isn't enough material left to do the job. More than likely you'll break the bolt before that happens. (Not in every case though.)
 

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Distorting the washer, at least a little bit, is exactly how a crush washer works. It fills in the gaps perfectly. If you smash it down too much, there isn't enough material left to do the job. More than likely you'll break the bolt before that happens. (Not in every case though.)
And down pressure not twisting pressure. I would guess they don't need to be super tight.
 

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And down pressure not twisting pressure. I would guess they don't need to be super tight.
Most times the torque needed for a banjo bolt is much smaller than you would think. Part of the reason is the bolt is hollow and has less strength. They hold up well to high pressure. You see them in braking systems on cars and motorcycles everywhere.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Did you verify the part number of the washer or did he just hand you some that look close? There are several different sizes of these washers and they are very close in diameter.
I believe they did when I got the new bolt. However it would probably be a good idea to check again as it seems odd that it's always the same side leaking.

Make sure its the washer and not a cracked line, clean it up good and look close make sure fluid is not running down from higher up. If everything is correct I might try annealing one of your old washers.
I've double checked and it's definitely from there. That's a good idea about annealing the old (original) washers. Hopefully I can find them still. I'll also compare them at the same time to see if they are indeed both the same.

Distorting the washer, at least a little bit, is exactly how a crush washer works. It fills in the gaps perfectly. If you smash it down too much, there isn't enough material left to do the job. More than likely you'll break the bolt before that happens. (Not in every case though.)
I definitely broke the bolt before that happened. Those hollow bolts sure don't handle a lot of torque :)
 

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I would say, start with 20 ft/lbs.
I would bet it's sort of like connecting brass fittings vs black pipe fittings.
 

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You have a banjo bolt and new washers, are you sure the pipe fitting isn't cracked?

If it is the washers that are causing this, I think what I would do, if it's not a warranty repair, is go to a diesel repair facility and pick up some rubber impregnated copper washers to seal this connection. If that didn't work than something might be warped to where it won't seal.
 
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