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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hi All,

I've got a 3020D still running the 24V system. This spring I had the starter rebuilt (it was cranking slowly, and ended up needing a new armature--it was cooked); upon putting it back on I found that sometimes it would not engage... but after a few tries would. I lived with it for the summer, but, very occassionally it would stick "on", but disengaged and not cranking the motor. This past weeknd it got worse--yet I found if I knocked on the solenoid with a wrench, it'd stop spinning--but often it would continue to spin after I started the tractor so I'd have to listen for it and give it a few whacks.

I finally had time to take it down to the guy that rebuilt it, nice local guy that's familar with the 24V's and has rebuilt lots of these.

On the bench it was fine, but, he felt bad I had to pull it and puled the solenoid apart; put a new disc in the solenoid, and put a new pin/keeper in the fork (the other was a bit worn). I got home, put it on.. same exact issue; only now I can't seem to git it to disengage with a whack, I had to unhook the neg battery cable.

To be clear:

Battery connected, key on, button push; ~75% of the time, starter won't engage to crank engine. 100% of the time once I push the starter button, it seems to just runaway. ~50% of the time if it engages and cranks the engine, the starter continues spinning until I unhook the battery again. If I hook the battery back up, no problems, the starter stays off until I attempt another start of the engine.

I saw a recent thread on a 3010 12V that was staying constantly engaged with battery connected, this is not the same symptom as me-and it appears that poster found a wiring fault at the circuit breaker?

Ideas on this one? I've heard that with low cranking voltage the solenoid will arc and weld itself--but I don't know how that jives with it not engaging to crank the engine. Given how it's behaving, it's almost impossible to do a voltage drop test without burning up the starter because it somebody has to be ready to unhook it.

EDIT:

I did some more quick probing around.

1) if I take the starter button out of the picture and just jump the terminals with wire, same behavior.
2) I probed the yellow starter button wire and can't find that its inadvertently grounded--probed through the neut safety switch back to S terminal.
3) What voltages should i be seeing with everything off?

Between G lug on solenoid and the S lug on solenoid, I see 25+ V, with everything off. Same between G and the 2 lugs on back of starter joined by copper strap.

It's hard to check cranking because I have to reach down and unhook the negative from the battery to get the starter to stop spinning; but it's over 24V.

Thanks all!

Joe
 

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I'm guessing you have the "floating ground" system?

one battery positive ground and the other negative ground.. dosen't all that mess meet at the starter?


Ran accross some talk about starter issues in the 4020's...and I remember Dad putting a few in His.

I assume they are similar to yours. There is some terminal "block" near the key switch thats caused problems iirc.

Wish I could help more..
 

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BrotherJoe
Yes low battery voltage can cause washer inside solenoid cap to stick to terminals causing starter to remain engaged after push button is released. Having experience of serving as a JD dealer service manager for 13 yrs with a lot of time spent diagnosing quirky JD 24 volt electrical systems my advice to you is you'll be money ahead if you'll convert the 24 volt system to a 12 volt system. Or you can continue to do this :banghead: 12 volt starters built today are more powerful that 12 volt starters built 50 yrs ago. Also I'll add 24 volt starters converted to 12 volts are NOT as powerful as new 12 volt starters.

Does your tractor have 2 circuit breakers mounted on starter attached to wiring harness to help limit electrical fires? I've seen several JD tractors with 24 volt systems have electrical created fires
 

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I know you said the guy that fixed the starter is familiar with the 24 volt starters, but from what you are saying, it sounds as if it still has a problem. Not sure where he gets his parts, but maybe a defective part has been installed. When starter spins without engaging, it may be the clutch in the drive gear is slipping. I have seen some 24 volt starters that have had a 12 volt solenoid installed that acted crazy but I don't remember exactly what they did. Does the solenoid have 24v marked on it? Do you know anyone that has a 24 volt tractor that would be willing to let you borrow his starter? If not, I would try to get a second opinion on your starter or buy a JD reman starter.
 

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I have "another color" tractor that has a similar starter,
the starter was "rebuilt" just before I purchased the tractor (the tractor was 20 years old at the time)

Well,, after dealing with the no crank for a month or two, I went to a parts place that stocked the OEM Bosch solenoid,,

The parts guy said I was crazy, buying the Bosch for over $100, when I could get the cheap import for $39.

Well, when I got home with the Bosch, I found I had the $$cheapo on it that was not working,,

I cleaned all the connections, installed the Bosch, and the tractor has been starting for 20 years,,, :good2:
 

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Does your tractor have 2 circuit breakers mounted on starter attached to wiring harness to help limit electrical fires? I've seen several JD tractors with 24 volt systems have electrical created fires
@Tx Jim

(Don't mean to highjack thread🤫)

The above quote caught my eye. My 67 3020 diesel was converted to 12v before I bought it. I've had it since ~1998, but from a local John Deere dealer who had had the tractor painted, new rear tires, new hydraulic pump(after I'd agreed to purchase tractor and allied 590 loader, when they hooked up loader, they realized pump was actually cracked), new batteries, wire harness, and gauges except for tach which was replaced a few years earlier when they'd rebuilt the engine for previous owner.

It's never really spun over very good. I'd actually bought a new starter for it after a couple years of owning it. But the starter has these two circuit breakers. Are they even needed? I believe one has a blue wire, other had a brown wire, both run to solenoid (I'm thinking to main PST that both positive cables run too).

After 21 years, I just did figure out why the tractor never really turned over very fast. My right side battery cable, while looking like new, had a bad connection inside the terminal end. I just replaced it after figuring this out and it spins over better than it ever has!

With only right side battery hooked up, key on, just turning running lights killed the circuit. That's when I started investigating...
 

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Crracer712
The 2 circuit breakers .aren't needed as much on 12 volt system vs 24 volt system BUT might come in handy if your tractors wiring harness developed a short. I've seen more than 1 JD tractor with 24 volt system without these circuit breakers have a fire under/around instrument cluster.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I'm closing the loop on this, since I asked in a couple of forums.

1) I'm bull-headed and kept battling this.
2) The solenoid was the issue.

Pulled starter, again, took back to guy that rebuilt it. He scratched his head and said "I'll order a solenoid". Few days later, slapped it back on the tractor, and I was back in business.

Given that it was mis-behaving before, there was also a mechanical component--the starter gear had chattered up a few teeth on the ring gear and left burrs there that would make it not engage--not to the extent that I was having with the bad solenoid, but, just in one part of the gear. But the main issue was, in fact, that solenoid.

This is here in case anyone else encounters this i a 24V system--it was really awkward to track (as evidenced by my frustration..). Mine had nothing but "stock" accessories on it, so, no radio or other lights and batteries were good as were connections.

I do have a 12V conversion on the shelf, though, for when this bites me again. For the cost of a rebuild and the time, I'd have been money ahead to go 12V right away, but, once I got into it, I had nowhere to go but deeper.


Thanks all,

J
 
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