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Discussion Starter #1
My step father in law needs a starter for his 4010 diesel, 24v. His local starter shop in this small town is allergic to work, and research, and so advised him to buy a new one.

At yesterdaystractors.com,

I've found one online for $380 + core charge (shipping's gotta be expensive for the core to send back?).

I've also run across a 12v conversion kit that does not mention a core needing to be returned, comes with an alternator, instructions etc, for the same price.


1) Should we be running full speed to the 12v conversion? It seems financially smarter both short term and long term. I'm not convinced his tractor's charging system is all that great. Every other couple of weeks he seems to be charging the batteries.

2) How well does a single 12v battery start this thing "as good as" 4 batteries running a stock starter?

3) Anything else to consider? This isn't a show tractor, and doesn't get used very often. But reliability would be nice.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I believe you are going to need 2 12v batteries in parallel, Have you looked a DB electrical for a starter.
I've had great success from DB Electrical, with a starter I bought for my Honda Accord. It's a rare version, V6 6-sp manual (2006 car) and DB was the only place I found that was not huge dollars. (The starters for the zillions of auto trans V6 cars are reasonable.)

But I saw nothing on DB's site about 12v conversion kits and am not interested in piecing it together from scratch. Thanks.
 

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If I owned a JD tractor with 24 volt system that required a new starter it definitely would get a new 12 VOLT starter in lieu of a 24 volt. Yes the two 12 volt batteries would need to be changed to attached parallel instead of series & the brown supply wire relocated to top solenoid post to join the blue wire.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Sounds good. And thanks for the legwork, flyweight. I noticed Rare Electrical appears to sell the same kit Walmart does, also with free shipping.

Talked to my step father in law yesterday. At first he was against the idea because he said 24v systems start faster? I told him I have no dog in that fight, I was only wanting him to be aware of his options.

Battery charging would also be a bonus for him; his generator hasn't worked in years. But he said he could get about a month's work done before having to charge them up since he uses zero electrical on the tractor, and it needs none to run.

I told him about the fuel gauge no longer working with the conversion, but he uses a stick anyway ... his fuel gauge hasn't worked in years.

************

Bonus questions, for anyone still reading:

1) I'd like to replace his faulty starter button while I'm at it; I suppose a normal button for a 4010 will also work here?

2) Converting to 12v, is there still a benefit to installing a battery cutoff switch, in terms of batteries getting drained from something?
 

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Same starter button for both 12 or 24 volt. Changing to 12 volt should eliminate voltage drain which is normally caused by brush dust in 24 volt starters
 

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question, for anyone still reading:

1) I'd like to replace his faulty starter button while I'm at it; I suppose a normal button for a 4010 will also work here?
Tx Jim answered that one.

2) Converting to 12v, is there still a benefit to installing a battery cutoff switch, in terms of batteries getting drained from something?
Taking into consideration the condition of all other electrical components, once converted to 12 volt you shouldn't have a problem.
Of course, it's always a good idea to install a Battery cut-off switch. If so, install it on the Negative side of the system.
The reason for the installation on the Negative Side, the Negative Cable is already grounded to the body/frame. No damage will be done if the terminals on the back side of the switch comes into contact with something.

If it were to be installed on the Positive Side of the switch, and the terminals were to come into contact with a metal item, it will create a direct short-circuit. Bad things can happen.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
The conversion kit came today and it looks pretty straightforward. We'll begin tomorrow.

Once the hood, floor panel, dash panel are apart I'll be able to trace what goes to what, but in the meantime ... This bracket and the twin, uh, relays/resistors/whatever ... what are they and do I need to retain them?


In this image, the pink wire in the background (dangling in front of the starter bolts) went to the old starter solenoid's small post. So did also the single, light blue wire (yellow butt connector). The clipped yellow wire is a mystery. The single pink wire (yellow butt connector) goes back to behind the dash. And then there are the double blue wires and the double pink wires.
 

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Those are Circuit Breakers, part of a wiring replacement kit, which was introduced to the 4020, 24-volt models. Some shops added the kits to the 4010 models.

If it'll help you any, below is the original wiring diagram. The yellow wire went to the Safety Start Switch(#12).

 

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Discussion Starter #12
Thanks Michael. Always like knowing the history! Apparently the protection upgrade didn't protect the lighting switch or other starter buttons ... I like circuit breakers, and these would undoubtedly be self-resetting, which I also like. I understand why there would not be a fuse box/panel since these are often left outside, but ... wow.

I don't know what a safety start switch would have done but I'm pretty sure this "farmer fixed" machine has been 100% manually-overridden for years. :) Since everything is compression, the only thing any starter does for this beast is get it going when on flat terrain. :)

I recognize the original generator and voltage regulator from the diagram and will look for those wire colors, for what it's worth. I also recognize from the picture the original starter and solenoid, even though the new-style 12v only has 2 terminals, just POS batt and starter switch.

I'll be paying attention to:

-- the charging system for this 12v conversion, those "2 wires" mentioned in the kit instructions, even though I don't see them near the starter ...
-- the starting circuit/battery cables for this 12v conversion
-- all other 12v considerations (lights, etc) a distant third
 

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The benefit of a 24 volt system vs 12 volt is that half the current is required to do the same work (i.e. starting the engine). Since power loss is proportional to current squared and voltage drop is determined by current and resistance, the losses in wires and bad connections are less with a higher voltage system. This is why electric power is transmitted long distances at 250,000 volts and up.

In the instance of the tractor, converting to 12v from 24v without changing the primary wires will result in twice the voltage drop (because you've doubled the current required to do the same work) vs 24v. And the percentage of power gone to resistive losses will be four times as much.

12v is definitely more convenient. Just don't expect equivalent performance without changing the wiring and other components inline with the starting current.

Al
 

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Discussion Starter #14
The directions say to look for, and open up a harness “near” the old regulator and use 2 of the 3 wires there together, to make the alternator’s sole connection.

I presume that takes care of “changing the primary wires” and that none of the 3 wires from the gennie and none of the 3-4 wires from regulator are used going forward.

Wish me luck. Now to remove the hood and find that wire harness.
 

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I presume that takes care of “changing the primary wires” and that none of the 3 wires from the gennie and none of the 3-4 wires from regulator are used going forward.
The primary wiring for the starter are the heavy battery cables. Pulling numbers completely out of my butt, if your present 24v starter draws 100A when cranking, the equivalent 12V starter will draw 200A. If your cables are, say, 6 AWG now, they should be changed to 2 AWG to maintain the same voltage and power drop.

Al
 

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Discussion Starter #16
The primary wiring for the starter are the heavy battery cables. Pulling numbers completely out of my butt, if your present 24v starter draws 100A when cranking, the equivalent 12V starter will draw 200A. If your cables are, say, 6 AWG now, they should be changed to 2 AWG to maintain the same voltage and power drop.

Al
Roger that. We have a variety of cables at our disposal. The ones that connected the two batteries together are huge, like 1 or 2 ga. So we can recreate what’s needed there if they’re long enough.

Regarding the alternator ... if we don’t care about any of the electrical accessories (lights, cig lighter) what’s to prevent us from just running a fresh wire from alternator directly to the POS on the starter (or that 2nd solenoid from the kit) which will directly feed both batteries?
 

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Roger that. We have a variety of cables at our disposal. The ones that connected the two batteries together are huge, like 1 or 2 ga. So we can recreate what’s needed there if they’re long enough.

Regarding the alternator ... if we don’t care about any of the electrical accessories (lights, cig lighter) what’s to prevent us from just running a fresh wire from alternator directly to the POS on the starter (or that 2nd solenoid from the kit) which will directly feed both batteries?
If you're making up a new wire, use 10 gauge wire to run from ALT to STARTER. As long as you feed voltage to the BROWN and BLUE wire at the key switch, it's work.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Have not begun to identify which brown and blue might be around, but seems like we don’t need to if we run new wire.

I’m told the key switch might be bad/unused, so there’s that. Regardless, the diagram seems to show the outside ears of both it’s A and B terminals get a constant 12+, so if we choose to retain the key switch I’ll keep that in mind.

But it seems crazy primitive to accept that the starter button would always be “live” if the keyswitch is bypassed. I need to eat lunch and ponder.

I very much appreciate the assistance!
 

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Discussion Starter #20
IT STARTS

:bigthumb:

I may follow up with a picture tomorrow. The secondary solenoid got mounted to the left side, tucked under/behind the hood area somewhat. We'll work on further protecting it from the elements. Didn't really wanna mount it to the backside of the control panel, but could have. Need to find a replacement side panel for the tractor. We have the other side but not the side that protects the starter area.

There are 6 items in the circuit: Alternator, starter, 2nd solenoid, starter button, 2 batteries. Fresh 10ga wire from alt to starter, 10ga wires for the starter button. I taped off all of the old wiring (not that's it connected to anything anywhere, anymore ... it's not). Fresh butt connectors of appropriate sizes, some elec tape, some wire loom (I like things to be pretty) and so on.

While I piddled on some wiring, my step father in law charged one of the batteries with his 1010, idling nearby. We picked up new shorty 0ga neg cables, one for each side and connected each to the top of the transmission plate (under the foot plate). The near battery has a 4ga cable (maybe 2ga, I dunno) since it's a short distance, and the far battery has a 0ga cable that I'd hate to think how much would cost if bought new. Both POS connectors are iffy and will be replaced tomorrow.

When I'd connected everything together except one of the batteries, the owner wanted to "just touch" the other battery cable, thereby making everything LIVE.

I asked him to ensure the thing was not in gear, just in case the starter was unknowingly shorted and there's not a single safety switch nor anything else like that present for the last 50 years or so. And his Airstream was sitting 5 feet in front of the tractor, and who would want a front loader to crunch into their old Sovereign?

We got a CLICK out of the starter solenoid, but no action. (good news, bad news)

************************

We paused to ponder the beer and to ponder the '89 C3500 my wife pulled onto the property, fresh from the previous owner. I'm a fan of the 454 and classic Muncie SM465 4-sp trans there. Ridiculous torque. 30-40 mins later ...

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I looked again at the starter. One of the battery cable terminal ends just barely was touching the start terminal. Damn that (naughty adult word) is close. Fixed that, so no more click. Also taped off the other small terminal on the starter's solenoid (dunno if thats NEG or POS, what's it for?) Connected the 2nd battery and we started the tractor with the help of some starter fluid. (It had been sitting for at least a month.)

Ran it for a while, turned up the throttle awhile and so on. Alt belt looks aligned OK. Once or twice it did not have enough juice to run the starter. Starter ran slowish, but when it ran it always started the engine.

It doesn't apparently spin the engine with as much verve as the 24v setup, I'm told. But it spins well enough to turn it over. A little concerned about those times when it just clicked and didn't spin the starter.

We will double-check those POS batt connection and that weaker battery (it was only 8.5v prior to charging; did not check voltage after charging. The other battery was a more solid 12.6v).

Thanks again!
 
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