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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
have they come up with a fix for this issue? seems there is a plunger that retracts when you turn the key, to allow fuel flow. on my model tractor a 2000 4300 HST the device allows oil to get behind the plunger and cause a hydraulic BLOCK to the plunger retracting as it should.... sooo I have to remove the device from its very tight location and work the plunger to squeeze out all the oil, and then I reinstall the device... I had to make a custom socket to remove the two 10 mm bolt heads... hopeing some one has an update. On another note.... what is the down side of just removing this device, or cutting off the plunger rod so it cant ever block the fuel? is the fuel going to evaporate or run into the injectors or what???

thanks

Bob
 

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Stopping the fuel is how it stops the engine from running.........imagine a engine you can't turn off.....also is part of safety system
 

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Agree with ttazzman. If you are mowing with the tractor and you come off the seat because the tractor is rolling over, you want that safety circuit to shut down the engine.

As another example, if someone driving the tractor passes out and falls out of the seat, you want the engine to shut down to keep the operator from getting run over (or mowed over).

I was using my JD 455 diesel mower one day, and was backing up and not paying attention to the low tree limb behind me which struck the back of the seat pushing me forward and pinning me into the steering wheel. I remember feeling that I couldn't get my foot off the reverse pedal. Thank goodness the safety system shut down the engine as soon as the seat switch was broken or I might have been seriously injured. It is hard to stop a 1,000 lb mower.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
thanks.... I was thinking the running system was shut off via the key -ignition system, not fuel delivery system.... it shuts off so fast i wouldnt have thought it was the fuel system!
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
soooo no one knows of an improvement for this shut off device? its miserable having to remove it every 5-6 hours of usage!!!!!!!!
 

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soooo no one knows of an improvement for this shut off device? its miserable having to remove it every 5-6 hours of usage!!!!!!!!
The real question is why you are having to do this at all. Unless I have missed something, I don't recall others having to remove their fuel shutoff solenoid every 5-6 hrs.

My 2004 4610 uses the same M810324 fuel solenoid valve, and I have never had to remove it in almost 1200 hrs of operation.

Perhaps the solenoid "pull-in" circuitry in your tractor is not providing adequate current, and thus your activity of periodically cleaning the solenoid somehow makes up for this and allows it to barely pull-in and start.

One possibility is that the thermistor used in the pull-in circuitry has gone bad and your solenoid is receiving the sustaining current for the primary solenoid coil, but not the extra pull-in current to activate the separate pull-in coil for a few seconds prior to starting.

I would also remove the K3 fuel shutoff relay and K4 engine run relay, use a scotch brite pad to clean the socket contacts on the relays, spray contact cleaner into the relay sockets, and replace. If the contact resistance for one of these relays has gotten high, there may be some voltage drop across the contact that is making operation of the fuel shutoff solenoid unreliable. You could also buy a new relay of this type and try it in each of the K3 and K4 positions to see if that makes a difference.

Replacing the M810324 fuel solenoid is something else to try if you have not already.
 

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thanks.... I was thinking the running system was shut off via the key -ignition system, not fuel delivery system.... it shuts off so fast i wouldnt have thought it was the fuel system!
yep ......only two ways to shut a diesel off.......cut the fuel .....or cut the air.....if you cant stop the fuel the go to way to stop a diesel engine is to shove a towel or something in the intake to starve it of air ......diesels do not require any form of electrical ignition

my 4500 has over 2k hrs on it ......never had the fuel solenoid out of it to even understand how oil could get behind the plunger.....but obviously its a seal issue...if its getting into the solenoid then i would replace the whole solenoid unit.....if its in the space between the solenoid rod and fuel plunger then i think its probably a injector pump problem ($$$)
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
thanks for the last 2 replies!! this last few days the shut off goes bad every time i turn the tractor off.... 10 minutes or 2 hours... I had to remove the device, pump it by hand to squeeze the oil out and reinstal and bammm, the tractor starts..... I finally figured i shouldnt turn the tractor off until i was done for the day or I wanted to go through the proceedure again.. I ordered a new part...then i am going to disect the old one.. the one in there now IS A REPLACEMENT from about 3 years ago! I found this problem on youtube. two guys posted videos on what they had to do to over come the issue. thats how i found out what to do.. They had mentioned it was a KNOWN problem and lots of tractors in my range. 4100 4200 4300 440 4500 4600 4700. (for JD Driver): since once i pump the oil out of the unit, and reinstall, the tractor starts every time, I figured its not an electrical issue... Im guessing since you more experienced guys didnt know of this issue there is little chance there is a new solution or an improved part!
 
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thanks for the last 2 replies!! this last few days the shut off goes bad every time i turn the tractor off.... 10 minutes or 2 hours... I had to remove the device, pump it by hand to squeeze the oil out and reinstal and bammm, the tractor starts..... I finally figured i shouldnt turn the tractor off until i was done for the day or I wanted to go through the proceedure again.. I ordered a new part...then i am going to disect the old one.. the one in there now IS A REPLACEMENT from about 3 years ago! I found this problem on youtube. two guys posted videos on what they had to do to over come the issue. thats how i found out what to do.. They had mentioned it was a KNOWN problem and lots of tractors in my range. 4100 4200 4300 440 4500 4600 4700. (for JD Driver): since once i pump the oil out of the unit, and reinstall, the tractor starts every time, I figured its not an electrical issue... Im guessing since you more experienced guys didnt know of this issue there is little chance there is a new solution or an improved part!
I would be interested in viewing the video ....so if I ever have a issue I am informed...so if it's convenient you could post it for others thx
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
 

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Too bad he didn't turn the key to ON while watching the solenoid when he had it removed before doing anything else. I would like to see if the solenoid pulls in or not before he removes the oil.

@dvice - when you are having a starting problem, and turn your key to ON, do you hear the loud clunk indicating that the solenoid is retracting? The next time you have a starting problem, please remove the solenoid and watch it while turning the key to ON to note whether or not the solenoid pin retracts before doing any cleaning. You could even measure the pin retracted length (protruding from the solenoid body) both before and after cleaning to see if that cleaning action actually does anything to make it retract further.

This solenoid lives in an oily environment and even has an o-ring seal to keep the oil in the pump, so it seems odd that this is really the problem.

Again, if the solenoid pull-in coil is not being properly energized by the pull-in circuit with the thermistor, your solenoid will often not have sufficient power to retract and allow the engine to start.

BTW, using a 1/4" drive socket, ratchet, and extension makes it easy to remove this solenoid. The bolt in the back is easy to get to with the proper tools.
 

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I ran into this problem last summer, the original fuel shut-off solenoid (4410 epwrvsr, 1080 hours) looked like it had gotten really hot and it didn't work. I priced one at Deere, and of course was shocked by the price so I bought a non-Deere unit online at 1/6 price, it worked great for a month or so and then quit, thinking maybe the unit was not up to par I paid full price for a Deere unit, got a few months out of it. At this point I was running into injector pump troubles so I replaced the pump (of course with a non-Deere supplied pump) when it arrived, I realized it had a manual lever for fuel shutoff which I would have requested if I knew it was available. That solved my problem.

As for the fixing it without a major modification, I vaguely remember something in the tech manual describing a warmup or countdown relay that activates when the solenoid is energized, I was thinking that might have been my problem, maybe the relay was staying energized and over heating. I had already solved my problem, so I didn't follow up. Since the solenoid, when energized, has the plunger pulled in creating the fuel on condition, offhand, I can't see how how this relay could work, I just know it is there. I'll dig out my manual and see what I can find.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Too bad he didn't turn the key to ON while watching the solenoid when he had it removed before doing anything else. I would like to see if the solenoid pulls in or not before he removes the oil.

@dvice - when you are having a starting problem, and turn your key to ON, do you hear the loud clunk indicating that the solenoid is retracting? The next time you have a starting problem, please remove the solenoid and watch it while turning the key to ON to note whether or not the solenoid pin retracts before doing any cleaning. You could even measure the pin retracted length (protruding from the solenoid body) both before and after cleaning to see if that cleaning action actually does anything to make it retract further.

This solenoid lives in an oily environment and even has an o-ring seal to keep the oil in the pump, so it seems odd that this is really the problem.

Again, if the solenoid pull-in coil is not being properly energized by the pull-in circuit with the thermistor, your solenoid will often not have sufficient power to retract and allow the engine to start.

BTW, using a 1/4" drive socket, ratchet, and extension makes it easy to remove this solenoid. The bolt in the back is easy to get to with the proper tools.
Driver://...i can do that tomorrow...the tractor is in non stating mode........ I have the proceedure to remove and replace down to about 10 minutes.. the secret is a 10mm 1/4" drive deep socket with about .600" of length cut off, the ratchet can rest square to the socket and bolt to remove(just fits).... I take the oil dipstick tube out and it leaves me more room...thanks for the tips and help

bob
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
JD Driver: took some picture.. tractor would not start!, I pulled the fuel shutoff switch and in the air i turned the key, the plunger tried to move but didnt... it measured .500"... I pumped the plunger by hand to squeeze out the oil, and then i turned the key, it retracted!... the measurement when retracted was, .217". so if the unit doesnt fill with oil it worked... it seems to be totaly NON electrical, and completely a defective plunger......
785697
785698
785699
 

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@dvice, thanks for taking this data and pictures. From your findings, it is clear that the oil laden fuel shutoff solenoid is harder to retract that one which has been emptied of oil.

Not sure that we can yet declare that this is not an electrical problem. Even though there is clear evidence that your tractor is not able to retract the oil laden fuel shutoff solenoid, it is entirely possible that this is normal and a tractor with a healthy pull-in coil and pull-in coil drive circuit has no trouble providing the additional force needed to retract an oil laden solenoid.

The fuel shutoff solenoid has two coils, the hold-in coil (used only for starting) and the pull-in coil (for both starting and running). The service manual says that the resistance of the pull-in coil coil measured across the A to B terminals should be 0.4 ohms, but it has been my experience that a fuel shutoff solenoid pull-in coil can work fine with up to 1.4 ohms, and the hold-in coil resistance is often up to 24 ohms. The important thing is that the pull-in coil is not burned out (leaving only the weak hold-in coil to overcome your fuel laden solenoid). If you measure an open circuit between terminals A and B, the pull-in coil is burned out.

785758


It is my understanding that the 4X00 series of tractors which use the thermistor based pull-in circuit are hard on the pull-in coil, and may overheat them and burn them out earlier than later tractors like my 4610 which utilize a far better timer based design without a thermistor. The 4X10 tractors only apply current through the pull-in coil for 3 seconds after the key is turned on, and are thus much kinder to the pull-in coil.

If the fuel shutoff coils look fine after measuring the resistance of the two coils, I would next focus my attention on the pull-in coil drive circuit. If your thermistor driven pull-in coil is not being energized, it could explain why the oil laden solenoid cannot retract against the added pressure created by the oil.

785711


As shown in the above schematic diagram, the pull-in coil is energized when current flows from terminal 30 on the K3 fuel shutoff relay through terminal 87A, then through the thermistor to ground. If either the K3 relay or the thermistor are bad, the fuel shutoff solenoid would be trying to perform its function with only the use of the weak hold-in coil, which wouldn't allow the tractor to start most of the time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
i am certainly weak in the electrical troubleshooting dept.... I can certainly check the ohms on the removed solenoid... and I have flirted with the idea of replacing the thermistor.... and since I have purchased a new plastic hood and dash and cowl plastic... I may look to solder in a new thermistor.... thanks for the continued advice...
 

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This is a simple tester I built to verify whether or not the pull-in coil drive circuit (relay or thermistor) has failed. Any button you have access to will probably work. You can get male crimp on 1/4" tab terminals at most auto-parts or farm stores. These terminals are the same size as the spade terminals on the bottom of the K3 relay.

785911


Perform these steps to use the test button.
1. Remove the K3 fuel shutoff relay
2. Plug one of the two leads on the test button into the relay terminal position labeled 30.
3. Plug the second lead on the test button into the relay terminal position labeled 85 (ground).
4. Turn the tractor switch from OFF to ON (don't engage starter yet).
5. Press the test button and you should hear the fuel shutoff solenoid retract.
6. While holding in on the test button, start the tractor, then release the test button to de-energize the pull-in coil. The hold-in coil should remain energized to keep the tractor running until you turn the key off.

785912

If the tractor does not start without using the test button, but does start with the test button, then replace the K3 relay first, and if that doesn't fix the starting problem, replace the thermistor.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
thanks, Im not sure Im up yet for building a test button, but my new solenoid came in...soooo Im thinking to test the ohms on the old one like you suggested before and then test the ohms on the new one..... if they are the same.... then it might not be an electrical issue????????( meaning the old solenoid electrical components are just as good as the new ones?.....but I will see how far i get with opening up the console to see behind the fuse panel....
 

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You are welcome. I look forward to hearing how the coil resistance compares between the old and new fuel shutoff solenoid valves, and whether or not just replacing this fuel shutoff solenoid valve will fix your starting problems.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
hello JD Driver... the old solenoid measures 0.6 on A to B. and 11.5 on A to C. on my meter set at 200 ohms. The new Solenoid measures 0.7 on A to B, and measures 31.5 on A to C!!!!! whats that tell me???? i got a chinese solenoid?? when i get a non rainy day Ill start to pull the cowl off and might check the relays and thermistor
 
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