Adding additional SCV's to JD 4720

Welcome to DT!

I have done exactly what you propose on my 4110, plumbed a OC valve into the PB loop....works perfectly. Just make sure the valve and hoses are rated for the correct flow (heading to bed, not gonna look it up now)

I can get more specific later...but it sounds like you know the basics already.

OK, Steve-here you go. You did not mention if you had a cabbed machine, so I will assume you don't.

You machine flows 12 GPM to the PB line, so a good valve would be this two spool valve (Unless you want/need more?) http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-7976&catname=hydraulic

I suggest getting the valve, and then fabricating the mounts before you buy any hoses. Once the valve is mounted you will need to get two 1/2" hoses and the proper QD's to be able to plug it into the PB lines. You will NOT use the return port that the backhoe plugs into since that bypasses the 3PH, but rather the one that's used when you remove the backhoe. You should have one Male and one Female QD.

Then, you can add QD's directly to the work ports on the valve with various fittings rather than extending them with hoses to keep everything simple and compact, this is how I did mine and it works quite well. Some pictures are in this web album: https://picasaweb.google.com/kdeckster/SCVPics?authuser=0&feat=directlink

If you tell me what you need the extra remotes for, I may be able to help better.

Kennyd
Thank you for the information. I checked on the 4110 since I was not familiar and of course it is not of similar flow rates to the 4720.
As you correctly said I have a 12gpm rear flow; you guessed correctly I am open station.
I am looking at doing this since the JD 4th/5th SCV diverter is a bit pricey and takes away from the front SCV's. My analysis got started as I am evaluating whether or not to go with a hydraulic tilt, angle, and offset rear blade or to stay manual. The wife is pushing to go hydraulic so I am looking at what it would take to equip the back end to handle it. Thus am looking at three spool valves: tilt, angle, offset.
I will confess that if I go the DIY design method, I wonder if it is worth going 4 spool for any future growth but would have to look at real estate space on the back to see if that could be fit in easily. I don't really know what I would use the rear aux hyd (PB) for with the spool valves in use so I don't think there is any conflict on flow demands to worry about the number of spool valves just if I can fit them in without creating a problem. I use the rear aux hydraulics (PB) for the backhoe, the splitter and the Salsco 10" chipper. None of these three would I want to use the spool valves so would probably just disconnect the hoses on the spool valves and plug the hoses together to keep clean and isolated when using the Aux hyd for its original purpose.

Kennyd

I tried on the surplus center website to find a template for the mounting holes for the different model spool valves. It would be nice to have template of the mounting holes so that I can evaluate space requirements to see if I can get it to fit somewhere. The dimensions are listed but if I have to have an extended bracket it would be nice to know the location of the mounting holes. From the pictures of yours it looks as if the mount is two holes on the diagonal of the length. The web site states three hole base. If you can tell me where your 2 spool mount holes are I should be able to determine a rough estimate of the mount holes for the 4 spool. Of course I could just buy it, but if it does not fit I would rather know that in advance thus my questions on the mount hole location.

Did you evaluate the Prince SV compact stackable control valves for your implementation (Catalog Pg 18)? It looks as if they could be assembled in whatever combination and added to later if needed. Price would be $10-$20 more than the same size monoblock valves but would allow growth if space allowed and needs required.

trovenn said:

If you can tell me where your 2 spool mount holes are I should be able to determine a rough estimate of the mount holes for the 4 spool. Of course I could just buy it, but if it does not fit I would rather know that in advance thus my questions on the mount hole location.

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My valve is smaller than the one I suggested since my system only flows 5 GPM. Attached below is a .pdf from Prince I found that has all the specs you will need.

Did you evaluate the Prince SV compact stackable control valves for your implementation (Catalog Pg 18)? It looks as if they could be assembled in whatever combination and added to later if needed. Price would be $10-$20 more than the same size monoblock valves but would allow growth if space allowed and needs required.

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Yes, I did...many times. But for me space was at a absolute premium and they where to big. If you can fit them it's a great option. Did you factor in the inlet and outlet sections in your price comparison?

Well I have nearly thought this auxiliary rear SCV plan through. Just a couple of areas that I have not yet come to grips with what I have to do to make it work.
Two potential plans for your comments. I require 3 additional SCV (spool valves, SV) for use. I do not plan on using my JD 3rd SCV as it is reserved for front end 3rd function use. In both plans the control valve would be mounted on a 0.25” or 0.37” steel plate apparatus U-bolted to the ROPS using the same type U-bolts that JD uses for the canopy.
Plan 1 uses a stackable Prince SV control valve.
Plan 2 uses a Wolverine WVS series monoblock control valve. Since it does not have growth capability without doing a complete R&R it is planned as a 4 spool monoblock so that I have a spare SCV for any future growth that might come up.

PLAN 1 – Use a stackable Prince SV Control Valve 12 gpm nominal. Item 9-7556 9SV-3-X-BBB (I believe the inlet and outlet section are covered by the X valve option) $89.95+3(67.95) = $293.80 plus fittings
Measurements are 8.625”x8.75”x3.25” and weighs 29# (36# for 4 valves) http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?catname=hydraulic&qty=1&item=9-7556
Growth could allow a 4 spool similar to Item 9-7557 9SV-4-X-BBBB but would not be the initial plan. Could add one addition spool valve for $67.95 at later date with longer tie rods to initial spool. http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?catname=hydraulic&qty=1&item=9-7557
Pros:
-Flexible growth
-Spacing between ports A & B on each valve is 2.18” adequate to put couplers on spool valve without hassle( see con for spacing between spools however)
Cons:
-Slightly more expensive for same number of valves
-Heavier than monoblock valve for same number of spools (3 spools weighs 29#; 4 spools weighs 36# vs 20# for 4 valve monoblock)
- Slightly thicker and the 3 SV is roughly the same size as the 4 valve monoblock
-Spacing between ports on adjacent spool valves is 1.44”. Minimum required distance between center of ports for female hydraulic couplers is 1.625”, too close for couplers to fit w/o issue. If kept it at 3 SV then straight fitting on center valve and 45 degree out on first and third valve but this would prevent growth of fourth valve.

PLAN 2 - Use a 4 spool 14gpm Prince WVS series double acting directional control valve. Item 9-7978 WVS41BBBB5C1 (http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-7978&catname=hydraulic ) which weighs 20 lbs. measurements are 8.56”x8.06”x2.75” Cost $350.95 plus fittings etc.
Pros:
-Slightly less expensive for same number of valves
- Lighter by 9 lbs than the stackable 3 spool and 16# lighter than the stackable 4 spool.
Cons:
-Not flexible for growth
-Spacing between Ports A & B centers is 1.34.” Spacing between ports on different spool valve ports is 1.42.” Minimum required distance between center of ports for female hydraulic couplers is 1.625”, thus need to devise method of spacing out couplers. If only used 3 spool valve monoblock, then could take left valve (#1) with 45 degree fittings angling at 10 and 8 o’clock, center valve (#2) using 45 degree fittings angling at 12 and 6 o’clock and right valve(#3) with 45 degree fittings angling at 2 and 4 o’clock could get adequate clearance for the couplers. Problem is I wanted to do 4 valves; how to handle the spacing. I am stumped without relocating the connectors and using hoses to get from the valves to the couplings (create a rat’s nest of 8 hoses)

I would like to avoid relocating the Couplers to a different location from the valve and using hoses to get there. 4 valves, 8 hoses = rat’s nest .
I would like to keep the Couplers in some neat array and not look like a oil field xmas tree.
I looked at Kenneyd’s pictures but with only two spools he did not have the problem as I see it.

Unfortunately right now I see no option other than relocating the couplers with the corresponding hose issue. That might let me move the valves somewhere else but I like the idea of having them on the right ROP as I look back at an implement. Does anyone know how expensive/difficult it would be to make short steel hydraulic lines of 6-8" max to go from the valves to a coupler plate a short distance away?
Ideas are welcome

trovenn said:

Unfortunately right now I see no option other than relocating the couplers with the corresponding hose issue. That might let me move the valves somewhere else but I like the idea of having them on the right ROP as I look back at an implement. Does anyone know how expensive/difficult it would be to make short steel hydraulic lines of 6-8" max to go from the valves to a coupler plate a short distance away?
Ideas are welcome

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Well, no one can ever accuse you of not planning and thinking your projects through! Nice research!

It is not hard to make steel hardlines, you can braze fittings on or get "swagelocks" that require no brazing. Matt (mjncad) has some experience with this, hopefully he will comment shortly. One major concern is vibration though, they need to be well supported or they will crack/fail.

Another option: Split the 4 circuits up so that two have QD's directly on the valve (like mine) and the other two are satellite mounted elsewhere on a bracket. You can probably get away with using small 1/4" hose since your implements don't need much flow and it's much easier to route than 3/8" hose.

After reviewing kennyd's tutorial on making hydraulic hoses I was thinking that maybe a satellite location for the couplers is not the end of the world. With a 5" radius bending capability on SAE 100R2AT 3/8 inch hose, it might be possible to accomplish without creating a rat's nest. I reviewed the numbers and think that 1/4 inch hose flow rate would be very restrictive. The 3/8 inch will work well however.

The problem is the reusable hose fittings that I find on Discount Hydraulics site are either JIC or NPTF and I would rather go ORB (can be adapted however). The other is the cost starts to go up with the reusable fittings quite rapidly. ($9.25 for NPT, and $13.58, and $21.50 for the JIC; each and 8 hoses would required 16 total)

I did look at a Gold Value Parts catalog and they have pre-fab 2-wire hydraulic hose lengths that are rather inexpensive and short. (12 inch, $7.34 and 15 inches, $8.24) They all seem to be NPT male fittings but can be adapted to ORB with adapters HSA3 NPT straight ORB ($2.58) and HSA13 NPT 90 degree ORB ($6.23). Total cost of $16.15 for a 12 inch 3/8" hose with ORB on both ends. Need 8 of them.

Problem is I know nothing about the quality of Gold Value Parts. Does anyone know anything about them. The New Holland dealer is a dealer in the area.

I think I may have to fab a wooden mockup of the plan and see if I can fit the components the way I want to. The old Form, Fit, and Function before I get too serious and start ordering parts.

trovenn said:

After reviewing kenndyd's tutorial on making hydraulic hoses I was thinking that maybe a satellite location for the couplers is not the end of the world. With a 5" radius bending capability on SAE 100R2AT 3/8 inch hose, it might be possible to accomplish without creating a rat's nest. I reviewed the numbers and think that 1/4 inch hose flow rate would be very restrictive. The 3/8 inch will work well however.

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The "restriction" of 1/4" hoses can be an advantage. Small cylinders can move VERY fast with lots of flow, like on a grapple the cylinders are usually 2"x8", and pumping 10+ GPM into them can make them slam open or closed-often flow restrictors are used anyway to control the speed.

Most implements used on your 3PH are likely not to need the full flow from your tractor, short of a HPHD (hydraulic post whole digger). Not trying to convince you or change your mind-I just want to give you options.

The problem is the reusable hose fittings that I find on Discount Hydraulics site are either JIC or NPTF and I would rather go ORB (can be adapted however). The other is the cost starts to go up with the reusable fittings quite rapidly. ($9.25 for NPT, and $13.58, and $21.50 for the JIC; each and 8 hoses would required 16 total)

Click to expand...

Yes, they are pricey, and they are a little longer than crimp-on's also meaning you cant start making a turn as soon. My personal favorite fitting is the JIC since there is no sealant or O-rings. And they are easy to adjust the direction. ORB's are my next favorite, but you will find limited styles (straight, 45*, 90*) for hoses since they are mostly used on valve, blocks, and manifold. It's common practice to put a ORB-JIC adapter on the valve then continue the plumbing with JIC fittings.

NPT's should be outlawed (especially for hydraulics), they just plain suck!

I did look at a Gold Value Parts catalog and they have pre-fab 2-wire hydraulic hose lengths that are rather inexpensive and short. (12 inch, $7.34 and 15 inches, $8.24) They all seem to be NPT male fittings but can be adapted to ORB with adapters HSA3 NPT straight ORB ($2.58) and HSA13 NPT 90 degree ORB ($6.23). Total cost of $16.15 for a 12 inch 3/8" hose with ORB on both ends. Need 8 of them.

Problem is I know nothing about the quality of Gold Value Parts. Does anyone know anything about them. The New Holland dealer is a dealer in the area.

Click to expand...

Never heard of them...

I think I may have to fab a wooden mockup of the plan and see if I can fit the components the way I want to. The old Form, Fit, and Function before I get too serious and start ordering parts.

Click to expand...

Making wooden or heavy cardboard parts first is a great way to make brackets and such.

Kennyd said:

The "restriction" of 1/4" hoses can be an advantage. Small cylinders can move VERY fast with lots of flow, like on a grapple the cylinders are usually 2"x8", and pumping 10+ GPM into them can make them slam open or closed-often flow restrictors are used anyway to control the speed.

Most implements used on your 3PH are likely not to need the full flow from your tractor, short of a HPHD (hydraulic post whole digger). Not trying to convince you or change your mind-I just want to give you options.

Click to expand...

You know way more than I about hydraulics which is why I look for all options and knowledge. The cylinders I will be driving initially are two 3.5x16x1.25 and one 3x6x1.25 with an orifice to slow it down but the orifice is only on the rod end port not the head end port so maybe it is there for another reason. I thought with the 3.5" cylinder I needed the flow unless I wanted to be there all day waiting. The hoses on the implement are all 3/8 not that that matters much.

Kennyd said:

Yes, they are pricey, and they are a little longer than crimp-on's also meaning you cant start making a turn as soon. My personal favorite fitting is the JIC since there is no sealant or O-rings. And they are easy to adjust the direction. ORB's are my next favorite, but you will find limited styles (straight, 45*, 90*) for hoses since they are mostly used on valve, blocks, and manifold. It's common practice to put a ORB-JIC adapter on the valve then continue the plumbing with JIC fittings.

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Have you ever seen prefab JIC hoses that are not made to order? I know our local NAPA makes hoses thus has the 1K+ crimper. If I took them the fittings and bought the hoses from them they might still crimp for me so I have the shorter barbs on the fittings. Are there ORB reusables fittings of any type available? If I use the correct JIC fittings I think I can avoid the bend except in the middle of the hose "S" shaped. How far from the reusable fitting before a bend can be started? I have not removed the fitting and looked but it appears that a lot of cylinder ports are JIC. Is that true?

Kennyd said:

NPT's should be outlawed (especially for hydraulics), they just plain suck!

Click to expand...

I know lots of folks dislike NPT but my thought was they are a one use thread/fitting. Once the threads have been used don't use them again. As long as I adapt them to an ORB which is taken off and put on instead of the NPT which is threaded once only they were OK. Is that true or do they still cause problems and should be avoided. Unfortunately I do have more than I would like on some of my implements that the Deere dealer put on.

OK, I'm late to this party; but I'll throw my 2-cents in for what it's worth.

trovenn said:

Unfortunately right now I see no option other than relocating the couplers with the corresponding hose issue. That might let me move the valves somewhere else but I like the idea of having them on the right ROP as I look back at an implement. Does anyone know how expensive/difficult it would be to make short steel hydraulic lines of 6-8" max to go from the valves to a coupler plate a short distance away?
Ideas are welcome

Click to expand...

Personally I see nothing wrong with relocating the couplers and I have on the backburner a project to do just that on my 4200. My gripe with where the manufacturers place the couplers is that it's darn near impossible to connect/disconnect them while wearing gloves. I know they shove them right next to each other due to space concerns.

I have the 370-FH http://www.stridetool.com/tools/hose_tubingtools/tubebenders_03.html tube bender and it should work for your needs. It bends 1/4" and 3/8" easily. 1/2" takes more grunt and the tool needs to be locked in a vise. Personally I'd go with steel hardlines because of the limited space you have. Do you have a Parker Store nearby? If so, you can order the hardlines and fittings from them. Not as cheap as the internet; but if you're a hydraulics newbie like me, having someone close with knowledge is quite helpful. Get a hold of Parker's 4300 catalog as it's a wealth of information.

If you go the hardlines route, learn to braze and it's not as difficult as it sounds. Just follow the instructions in Parker's 4300 catalog and you'll be good to go. I made my own braze rings from brazing wire as Parker wanted too much for them and the local stores would have to order them in. Don't try to braze with a propane or MAPP gas torch as it's not hot enough. Get a Oxy-Acetylene rig; one of those small hand held kits is fine. The key to brazing is cleanliness and the right amount of heat.

Be sure to buy a few extra tube ends to practice brazing on before doing the real items.

trovenn said:

I think I may have to fab a wooden mockup of the plan and see if I can fit the components the way I want to. The old Form, Fit, and Function before I get too serious and start ordering parts.

Click to expand...

A mockup will be your best friend. To get the steel lines figured out, I'd use some sort of soft brass or other material straight wire to figure out your routing, and bend points and angles.

Kennyd said:

NPT's should be outlawed (especially for hydraulics), they just plain suck!

Click to expand...

AGREED! Those things are just plain evil!


One last thing...use cardboard to test for leaks when the system is pressurized. I use drywall shims. I know its tempting to use your fingers like one does with household plumbing; but don't as you'll be in for some nasty medical procedures and bills. I have to resist the temptation to use my fingers.

mjncad said:

OK, I'm late to this party; but I'll throw my 2-cents in for what it's worth.



Personally I see nothing wrong with relocating the couplers and I have on the backburner a project to do just that on my 4200. My gripe with where the manufacturers place the couplers is that it's darn near impossible to connect/disconnect them while wearing gloves. I know they shove them right next to each other due to space concerns.

I have the 370-FH http://www.stridetool.com/tools/hose_tubingtools/tubebenders_03.html tube bender and it should work for your needs. It bends 1/4" and 3/8" easily. 1/2" takes more grunt and the tool needs to be locked in a vise. Personally I'd go with steel hardlines because of the limited space you have. Do you have a Parker Store nearby? If so, you can order the hardlines and fittings from them. Not as cheap as the internet; but if you're a hydraulics newbie like me, having someone close with knowledge is quite helpful. Get a hold of Parker's 4300 catalog as it's a wealth of information.

If you go the hardlines route, learn to braze and it's not as difficult as it sounds. Just follow the instructions in Parker's 4300 catalog and you'll be good to go. I made my own braze rings from brazing wire as Parker wanted too much for them and the local stores would have to order them in. Don't try to braze with a propane or MAPP gas torch as it's not hot enough. Get a Oxy-Acetylene rig; one of those small hand held kits is fine. The key to brazing is cleanliness and the right amount of heat.

Be sure to buy a few extra tube ends to practice brazing on before doing the real items.

A mockup will be your best friend. To get the steel lines figured out, I'd use some sort of soft brass or other material straight wire to figure out your routing, and bend points and angles.

One last thing...use cardboard to test for leaks when the system is pressurized. I use drywall shims. I know its tempting to use your fingers like one does with household plumbing; but don't as you'll be in for some nasty medical procedures and bills. I have to resist the temptation to use my fingers.

Click to expand...

I was hoping you would join in. It was mentioned that you were knowledgeable on the hardline fab concept earlier in the thread. I'm glad you said that propane/MAPP was not hot enough. I have a full size O/A rig. That is not a problem. I O/A weld, but have not brazed steel fitting joints. (sweated copper fittings but that is different.) I guess I might have to learn what a braze ring is since you reference it. What wall thickness steel tubing is the minimum for hydraulic lines??

Never let fingers get near hydraulic fluid under 2500-3000psi, even water at that pressure will cause surgery and potential loss of limbs if leaking and directed onto/under the tissue. Fuid injection is BAD!!!

trovenn said:

I O/A weld, but have not brazed steel fitting joints. (sweated copper fittings but that is different.) I guess I might have to learn what a braze ring is since you reference it. What wall thickness steel tubing is the minimum for hydraulic lines??

Click to expand...

I've sweat soldered lots of copper tubing, and brazing has similar concepts. It just uses diffferent flux and filler materials and more heat.

Hopefully this link will get you to that Parker 4300 catalog I mentioned. Make sure you download the ZIP file to get the whole catalog. The PDF file is just the table of contents.

http://www.parker.com/portal/site/P...N=FITTINGS&iden=&stpoint=K&fromSource=&fromId=#

It lists tubing thicknesses and pressure ratings, and more fitting types than you even knew existed. The brazing ring is just a donut made from filler material. Again the 4300 catalog shows those too.

Where is the Backhoe return?

Kennyd,
'First post, I've been out here learning from you guys for quite some time now... What a great resource!

OK, I am working on the same upgrade on a 2008 JD 4720. I'm installing the PB kit and using a Prince Wolverine WVS21BB5C1 2 spool valve with the PB adapter to achieve the 4th and 5th SCV functionality. I understand the serial nature of the PB circuit, the need for a low pressure return to a sump and the valve used is very clear on how it is plumbed. Everything has made sense to me up until I came across this post. I was confused about something you said in the quote below and was hoping someone could clarify.

Kennyd said:

Once the valve is mounted you will need to get two 1/2" hoses and the proper QD's to be able to plug it into the PB lines. You will NOT use the return port that the backhoe plugs into since that bypasses the 3PH, but rather the one that's used when you remove the backhoe. You should have one Male and one Female QD.

Click to expand...

What are you referring to when you say not to plumb to the return port the backhoe uses? Is this the one just below the drivers right, rockshaft arm and part of the PB kit? I don't have a backhoe to reference and the above comment on the backhoe return makes me go hmmmmm...:unknown: These things are too expensive to risk screwing up when knowledgeable help is a question away!

If I'm OK using the transmission return port that's available after the PB installation, does anyone know what the standard is for the 3/8" QD? It doesn't mate to a spare 3/8" ag interchange QD I have and I'll need to know when I get hoses around. The QD is on the tractor miles from my house, so measuring with the calipers is a stretch.

Thanks for all the help!
Matt