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My backhoe won't push the tractor forward when I need to move. It's in neutral and rpm's are around 2300. I'm on flat ground. It was fine a couple days ago. Backhoe seems to be weak digging in ground that was tilled a year ago. I'm thinking I'm loosing pressure/flow. No leaks anywhere. Before I freak out and think my pump is going bad, what else can I look at. Hydraulic fluid is full, a little over actually. 2014 1025r with under 200 hrs. Hydraulic oil, screen and filter done at 100 hrs. Thanks
 

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Run around and disconnect/reconnect all of your hydro fittings before doing anything else. Check to make sure they are clean while you're doing it.
 

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It seems like flow is being released by a pressure relief valve. When I put the arms of the backhoe Down and raise the tractor, they loose the pressure in them. I can't even raise the front end of the tractor off the ground withe the FEL. I'm definitely loosing some flow to a bypass of some kind.
 

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Before you panic. Put everything up and in its storage position. Pin up the back hoe up so it doesn't drift down on you, make sure it's cold and check your fluid levels again. Also do what JimR said and go around and disconnect the hoses to the FEL and BH and clean and reconnect. How much over the fill line is it and it sounds like you may have some air in system. Have you seen any obvious puddles under the machine?
 

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I would put a pressure gauge at one of the scv's for the loader and test the pressure with the backhoe plugged in and with the backhoe bypassed. If you loop the power beyond to bypass the hoe do you hear any sounds of the hydraulic system straining?
 

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Before you panic. Put everything up and in its storage position. Pin up the back hoe up so it doesn't drift down on you, make sure it's cold and check your fluid levels again. Also do what JimR said and go around and disconnect the hoses to the FEL and BH and clean and reconnect. How much over the fill line is it and it sounds like you may have some air in system. Have you seen any obvious puddles under the machine?
It's about 1/2" over the full line when warm. I should drain a little, but it's been like that for awhile now. It was fine a couple days ago and I haven't hooked or unhooked any attachments. No puddles or drips under machine. I do know if I raise the hoe to home position, drive to the backyard and back, the hoe has already sagged enough that it bangs, due to the loss of pressure. I'll try unhooking everything.

I would put a pressure gauge at one of the scv's for the loader and test the pressure with the backhoe plugged in and with the backhoe bypassed. If you loop the power beyond to bypass the hoe do you hear any sounds of the hydraulic system straining?
Do you know how much pressure it should read. I would need to make sure I get a high enough gauge.
 

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I believe 2000 psi. Gage should be 3000psi to be safe. Do you see any signs of airiation after you use it a while such as foamy hydraulic fluid?
Also when implements such as your hoe or the loader have their controls in their normal position, that is you are not operating the valves, then the trapped fluid in the cylinders is what is responsible for the position of the implement being held in place or "up".
My first impression when you described the drooping and loss of force was that your cylinder piston seals were leaking through at a significant pace, but your report of a loss of hydraulic force in the whole unit puzzles that analysis. This is a relatively new machine, warranty situation or do you prefer to handle things yourself?
 

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It's about 1/2" over the full line when warm. I should drain a little, but it's been like that for awhile now. It was fine a couple days ago and I haven't hooked or unhooked any attachments. No puddles or drips under machine. I do know if I raise the hoe to home position, drive to the backyard and back, the hoe has already sagged enough that it bangs, due to the loss of pressure. I'll try unhooking everything.

Do you know how much pressure it should read. I would need to make sure I get a high enough gauge.
My BH loses pressure like that as soon as I take the pin out. I just reach around and pull the lever to keep bringing it back up. The hydraulic system doesn't have enough a big enough pump to keep the pressure built up to keep the backhoe in the raised position with the pin out. They all do that. But that doesn't seem to be what is wrong with yours. Did you unhook and rehook everything and try it again?
 

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My BH loses pressure like that as soon as I take the pin out. I just reach around and pull the lever to keep bringing it back up. The hydraulic system doesn't have enough a big enough pump to keep the pressure built up to keep the backhoe in the raised position with the pin out. They all do that. But that doesn't seem to be what is wrong with yours. Did you unhook and rehook everything and try it again?
I just want to suggest that if pump pressure or volume had anything to do with keeping a backhoe or loader raised, then shutting off the tractor would result in them dropping straight to the ground. With these open center hydraulic valve systems when the valve is let go and in its normal position the system pressure flows straight through the valve and returns to tank. The cylinder ports are blocked with solid sections of the spool.
If dropping happens the only leak path is across the piston of a cylinder allowing fluid to leave one end of the cylinder and enter the other, or the very tight tolerance (.0002) between the valve spool and the valve body has worn larger. Barring external leaks anyway.
Hope I'm not coming off like I'm being confrontational but this is something I strongly feel I have a decent understanding of.
 

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I just want to suggest that if pump pressure or volume had anything to do with keeping a backhoe or loader raised, then shutting off the tractor would result in them dropping straight to the ground. With these open center hydraulic valve systems when the valve is let go and in its normal position the system pressure flows straight through the valve and returns to tank. The cylinder ports are blocked with solid sections of the spool.
If dropping happens the only leak path is across the piston of a cylinder allowing fluid to leave one end of the cylinder and enter the other, or the very tight tolerance (.0002) between the valve spool and the valve body has worn larger. Barring external leaks anyway.
Hope I'm not coming off like I'm being confrontational but this is something I strongly feel I have a decent understanding of.
I know what you are saying, and you are right if the tolerances are out then it won't work either but what I am saying is these smaller machines don't have big enough pumps on them for the BH. Even when it was new the backhoe would bleed off and I called the dealer about it and I was told the same thing I am saying now.

The pump has everything to do with it. You have to have equal pressure on both sides of the valve to raise and lower the attachments. That's how it all works. There is always pressure on the cylinders so that when you shut it off things just don't fall. That is part of the reason when taking off or putting on the FEL or the BH you wiggle the joysticks to make sure all the pressure is out of the lines so that it is easier to hook or unhook the lines. Plus it helps in not making a big mess with the hydraulic oil shooting out when you disconnect the lines. When the tractor is running and you are driving it around and using it the system doesn't have enough pressure to hold everything in place. Over time even the bigger equipment will wear out and things start to bleed off is the term we use. There are different threads on here that talk about outriggers and the BH doing the same thing. My Outrigger seal got some dirt in it and bleeds off overnight but I just deal with it. The BH will do the same. Even with it pinned and driving it around the BH will not stay fully raised and will bounce, and pinned over night it will bleed off and be resting on the pin when you go to use it the next day. The weight of the boom causes it to do that. There isn't anything you can really do about it. I know what you are saying and the safety systems built into the cylinders won't just let them fall. What we are saying is he might have air in the system or possibly dirt got into a connector and a quick fix is to disconnect everything, clean it and put it all back together and give her a whirl..if that doesn't work than there is something wrong with his system and a call to the dealer may be in order.
 

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Their are people on here that can explain this a lot better than I can. The 1025R has an "Open Center" hydraulic system. Pump pressure is only developed and utilized when a valve is moved out of a neutral position. The Pump does "not" hold up the backhoe...

OP, I'd re-connect all hydraulic lines. If no change I'd call my dealer.
 

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I know what you are saying, and you are right if the tolerances are out then it won't work either but what I am saying is these smaller machines don't have big enough pumps on them for the BH. Even when it was new the backhoe would bleed off and I called the dealer about it and I was told the same thing I am saying now.

The pump has everything to do with it. You have to have equal pressure on both sides of the valve to raise and lower the attachments. That's how it all works. There is always pressure on the cylinders so that when you shut it off things just don't fall.
in an open system, when the valve is centered, there's no connection from the cylinders to the pump. think of it like a ball valve for a garden hose. you close the ball valve (center position) no water goes past, in either direction.

That is part of the reason when taking off or putting on the FEL or the BH you wiggle the joysticks to make sure all the pressure is out of the lines so that it is easier to hook or unhook the lines. Plus it helps in not making a big mess with the hydraulic oil shooting out when you disconnect the lines.
we relieve pressure because the connectors are downstream of that ball valve. they may be pressurized from the weight of things on the cylinder.

When the tractor is running and you are driving it around and using it the system doesn't have enough pressure to hold everything in place. Over time even the bigger equipment will wear out and things start to bleed off is the term we use.
this is actually because the seals in the control valve allow fluid to leak past from one side of the loop to the other. or ate you suggesting that there's over 2000psi from the weight of the backhoe downriggers just hanging there, allowing the pressure in the cylinder to overcome the tractor's pump?

There are different threads on here that talk about outriggers and the BH doing the same thing. My Outrigger seal got some dirt in it and bleeds off overnight but I just deal with it. The BH will do the same. Even with it pinned and driving it around the BH will not stay fully raised and will bounce, and pinned over night it will bleed off and be resting on the pin when you go to use it the next day. The weight of the boom causes it to do that. There isn't anything you can really do about it. I know what you are saying and the safety systems built into the cylinders won't just let them fall. What we are saying is he might have air in the system or possibly dirt got into a connector and a quick fix is to disconnect everything, clean it and put it all back together and give her a whirl..if that doesn't work than there is something wrong with his system and a call to the dealer may be in order.
we agree on one thing. if the basic troubleshooting tips we've provided here don't help, then a call into the dealership is most certainly warranted.

OP, lower your 3pt hitch lever a small amount. your pump may be going into relief if it's all the way up, and the feedback is out of adjustment. if this fixes the problem, you can adjust the feedback so it fixes the problem.
 

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I just went out to try a couple things. I left the tractor at idle and the hoe moved the tractor forward and backwards like normal. I turned the idle up to 2400 and it worked like normal. I never unhooked and reconnected anything. That was my next step if I still had problems. Hydraulic level cold is about 1/4" over full. I remember I just got the backhoe attachment and was thinking the fluid would drop a little. I guess it didn't. The only thing that stands out right now is the hydraulic fluid level. I'm going to remove some fluid for now. My next project for the hoe will be a little while down the road. Thanks for all the help and suggestions.
 

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OP, lower your 3pt hitch lever a small amount. your pump may be going into relief if it's all the way up, and the feedback is out of adjustment. if this fixes the problem, you can adjust the feedback so it fixes the problem.
It was all the way down.

When I mentioned the FEL couldn't lift the front of the tractor, That might of been my fault. I don't think I had the bucket curled down enough to lift the front end. I was starting to go down a slight angle with the tractor and didn't compensate for it. I'm pretty sure the issues were all in the backhoe. The backhoe is new. This is only the second time using it. Fittings were clean being a new attachment, but hey, you never know.
 

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Disregard!
 

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Maybe you just had some air in the lines?
Looking at my backhoe manual there is a procedure on how to bleed the system...order of levers to operate...Learn something new everyday.:laugh:
 

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...what I am saying is these smaller machines don't have big enough pumps on them for the BH. Even when it was new the backhoe would bleed off and I called the dealer about it and I was told the same thing I am saying now.
The pumps absolutely are big enough, the backhoe works fine as designed. Increasing the size of pump will not reduce the leak-down that occurs when the valves are in neutral position. Your backhoe bleeding off is normal, up to a point. If it is excessive then that indicates a problem - but not a pump problem.

The pump has everything to do with it. You have to have equal pressure on both sides of the valve to raise and lower the attachments. That's how it all works. There is always pressure on the cylinders so that when you shut it off things just don't fall. That is part of the reason when taking off or putting on the FEL or the BH you wiggle the joysticks to make sure all the pressure is out of the lines so that it is easier to hook or unhook the lines.
I think there is some miscommunication here. There is not always pressure in the cylinders when the valves are centered - aside from the self created pressure from the weight of the attachment acting on the cylinder. Equal pressure on both sides of a valve would result in nothing happening.

Also note that there are different types of "open center" valves. There are some types that when in the neutral position, have all ports connected - the "equal pressure on both sides" statement may apply in those types. This is not the type of valves that we have on our tractors. When our valves are centered, there is no connection from the pump to the sides of the valve. Leak down will occur at the same rate wether or not the pump is running.
 

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All good points. There is some misunderstanding in what I was trying to say as my brain goes faster than my fingers. Some things I thought I typed didn't actually one out on the paper. Sorry about that. I can only blame the he meds. Anyway, the point I was trying to make was air in the line, dirt or even metal shavings could be making it not work right. Just because it's new doesn't mean there isn't something wrong inside.

Now the pumps I'm used too have pressure on both sides. Apparently these do not. But this is a fact that when my cylinders are up, over night the right one bleeds off enough that I raise it a few inches before I even move the tractor, I also curl the BH bucket back up and then raise the boom all the way up off the pin. It's been doing that since I bought it new almost 3 years ago. Dealer told me this is normal. So anyway, in my mind the pump isn't big enough when digging in harder material. For what it is designed for yes it is big enough and does most things extremely well. It is what it is. There maybe air in my system that does this but who knows? I do know that the BH should not fall down like it does when it's not pinned and you are working the machine. It gets to the point that i keep it pinned until I am ready to use it.

When I take the BH off I sit it on some 4x4s and then take the weight off the cylinders so that their only function is to stabilize it from tipping over. I also wipe off the excess oil and any dirt and hook the lines together. They stay clean that way.

Well not sure if that clears anything up or not? Bottom line is hopefully he gets his BH running right and can lift and push his rig. :)
 

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in an open system, when the valve is centered, there's no connection from the cylinders to the pump. think of it like a ball valve for a garden hose. you close the ball valve (center position) no water goes past, in either direction.



we relieve pressure because the connectors are downstream of that ball valve. they may be pressurized from the weight of things on the cylinder.



this is actually because the seals in the control valve allow fluid to leak past from one side of the loop to the other. or ate you suggesting that there's over 2000psi from the weight of the backhoe downriggers just hanging there, allowing the pressure in the cylinder to overcome the tractor's pump?


we agree on one thing. if the basic troubleshooting tips we've provided here don't help, then a call into the dealership is most certainly warranted.

OP, lower your 3pt hitch lever a small amount. your pump may be going into relief if it's all the way up, and the feedback is out of adjustment. if this fixes the problem, you can adjust the feedback so it fixes the problem.
No, if the weight of the cylinders was over 2000lbs I would be running a way bigger machine than Lil Ole Betsy! Lol
 

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It is not unusual to have piston seals that are not in optimum condition even in new equipment. Sometimes cylinders may be assembled well ahead of actual assembly to the final device such as a loader or backhoe. They could conceivably have been in a static condition for a year or two before they get to the consumer and their elasticity could be compromised. I have renewed countless cylinders but not yet on my little Deere. Large expensive equipment would certainly have the most up to date materials and engineering built into their hydraulic components, but small and relatively inexpensive equipment such as the 1025 would most likely have a relatively simple and inexpensive piston seal design.
 
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