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Discussion Starter #1
I've got a lovely (being facetious) crop of CT growing in a clearing that's got some alsike clover (planted) and other weeds amongst some stumps that need removal before I can do any serious ground work in the area. I hit it with a reasonably heavy soaking of 10% gly, but I'm wondering if my water is hard enough to have hindered it's impact because we're at 5 weeks post-spray and the thistle is still plugging right along and growing seed heads.

Since I didn't mow or weed whack at all prior to my application (I wanted full absorbtion to the roots), I realize the plants are going to have lots of stores of nutrients to burn through. But how long will it take before they should start at least yellowing from the toxins? I'm mainly wondering if I should get some water treatment and mix up some more and do another application, or if I'm just being impatient and should let the stuff work through?

I did get a very good kill on just about everything else I sprayed. There's some grasses that seem to be holding their own, or it could be new growth after the existing stand was whacked. I did have seeded out grass there last year prior to the township's mowing.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I'm not worried about burning down the clover out there if it means killing the thistle at this point. The deer will have to eat something else. :laugh:

I've got some 2,4-D. How hot should I mix it? Any suggestions about water treatment for iron? It's a small enough area (1/2 acre total between two areas that have thistle) I could go distilled too if it makes more sense. We're only talking about 3 gallons or so of mix. I use a 1.5 gal handheld sprayer for application.
 

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5 weeks means it's a failure......that stuff should've been brown within a day or three.

Glyco (roundup) doesn't really soak to the roots. It's actions are in the leaves. It interrupts some part of photosysthesis. If it's not green, it won't kill it.

It is also immediately inactivated by soil contact. I'm not sure if the hard water plays a role or not - I suppose that enough Iron may bind the salt and inactivate it, maybe???? :unknown:

Some 2-4-d, or Par III, would be a good addition. If your using a handheld your dosing will be in millilitres, it will be pretty small.

-J.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I know it's not in the soil, but it does bind to hard water and is inactivated (says so in the label). I figured at a 10% mix I had more than enough to make some impact, but I guess not. We also got rain about 6 hours after I applied, so maybe the waxy leaves were too much for the gly to penetrate without more time?

Gly disrupts the plants ability to process a specific amino acid. It's systemic, and not just killing the leaves.
 

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I know it's not in the soil, but it does bind to hard water and is inactivated (says so in the label). I figured at a 10% mix I had more than enough to make some impact, but I guess not. We also got rain about 6 hours after I applied, so maybe the waxy leaves were too much for the gly to penetrate without more time?

Gly disrupts the plants ability to process a specific amino acid. It's systemic, and not just killing the leaves.
You could do a 50% mix, and if something in the water is binding it, it won't work.

I'm not sure if 6 hours is enough, but that certainly is a possibility.

-J.
 

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Hit it again

I agree that the CT needs hitting again. I don't like a combination of 2,3,d and Glyco because they act entirely differently. 2,4,d acts relatively quickly with wilting in hours. Glyco needs time to be transferred to the roots from the leaves. If the leaves wilt too quickly, it stops the transfer.

You might want different water and definitely use some sticker or surfactant regardless of what you use. Normally glyco is fine once it dries on the plant. Rain after that won't wash it off. I suspect that either the water interferred or there was some other issue.

Treefarmer
 

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Discussion Starter #9
The stuff I used supposedly has a surfactant in it. I'm guessing the rain was likely why it didn't take on the bigger plants. The smaller stuff is scorched good.
 

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The stuff I used supposedly has a surfactant in it. I'm guessing the rain was likely why it didn't take on the bigger plants. The smaller stuff is scorched good.
Glyco only works on actively growing plants. Is it possible that the "bigger" ones were at the end of their growth cycle, but the little ones were growing like, well - weeds??


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Discussion Starter #11
The thistle is actively growing alright - it's plugging along towards seeding out!

The smaller plants that got crispy were grasses, goldenrod, etc. Smaller in that their stems aren't nearly as big as the thistle.
 

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Jim,

CT is NOT hard to kill. I kill the crud at 2qt per A.

Something is goofy with your mix.

Iron, and calcium tie up Glyphosate. 17lb to 100gal of tank mix, with ammonium sulphate neutralizes even the worst water.

If the concentrate you used was at 10%, that has to be some seriously hard water for that to be a problem.
Considering you got a good kill on grass, that isn't the issue.

Same thing with the surfactant. Thistle has all those tiny hairs and keeps the droplets from being absorbed, unless the surface tension is dropped.
Some of the Generic Gly with "With Surfactant", has just enough to legally make the claim, and not enough to actually be useful.
I always ignore the claim and mix NIS at the label rate anyhow.

How old is the Gly concentrate?
The stuff does weird things after 3-4 years, or a couple freeze cycles. I have seen old stuff work just fine, and the next jug from the same case only get a partial kill.



If you have 2,4,D handy, just follow the label for spot spraying rates, and add a good NIS.

Just be prepared for the crap to go Zombie on you, and be back.
They crank out LOTS of seeds, and they remain viable for a long time.

Personally, I would invest in a jug of Crossbow/Crossroads and just murder everything but the grasses.
The stuff will be handy later, when all the woody stuff decides to come back, and it will be back.:nunu::nunu:
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I used straight well water, so it wasn't softened at all and we do have a lot of iron.

One spot I'm treating is a wetland, so I'm not allowed to get real nasty with the chemicals. I'm tempted to try Tordon on the roads shoulder though - that's not wetland according to the county guy. The upland spot is going to be a garden eventually, but will be a log landing before that (later this year). I'm ok with killing everything off in both of these areas. Along the road I'd prefer be bare dirt. In the garden, I'd rather keep some roots to slow down the erosion while I'm working over it. I know I'm going to have bare spots regardless, but I'd like to limit it to actual worked area instead of the whole thing due to thistle kill measures.

The surfactant was pre-mixed, and the gly was fresh this spring with care not to freeze it (I know about that problem). I found out after buying this stuff that it's not the highest potency of acid either. At least it was reasonably cheap on sale at TSC. I'll be getting it from another vendor in the future.

The garden site had thistle go to seed last year, and the plants look to be doing well colonizing. It's getting thick up there!

I appreciate the input guys! I'm a machinist, not a farmer. :laugh:
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Personally, I would invest in a jug of Crossbow/Crossroads and just murder everything but the grasses.
The stuff will be handy later, when all the woody stuff decides to come back, and it will be back.:nunu::nunu:
It's funny you should mention this, because I did spray a few of them with my 50/50 diesel triclopyr mix I use on fresh stumps when I was up a couple weeks ago. I didn't look closely enough at that area when I was there on Monday to see if it did any good or not. That stuff has been frozen and isn't fresh, so it might not be good anymore either.
 

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The poison ivy/tough brush version of Roundup that my wife uses starts to show effects on thistle in a matter of hours and the plant is dry and wrinkled up by the next day. To check, you're applying it to the broad leaves and not the base, correct?
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
Yep, I was misting it with a 1.5 gal hand-held sprayer.

The only thing that doesn't make sense is why some of the weeds got toasted and others didn't, unless I just didn't apply enough to the thistle to get the job done.

The Mrs. and kiddo are headed up tomorrow. I'll have them take a peek and see if the garden site is burnt now or not. I'm not sure when I'm headed back up there and the Mrs. is the last person you'd want spraying weeds. I had straight out of the jug 2,4-D in a spray bottle and she used the whole thing (like $5 in chemical) on about 4 sumac trees. :gizmo: Then came to ask me if I had any more of it? :dunno: So yeah, she spent 5 bucks to roast the leaves off those trees and they didn't even die. :banghead: That's part of why I don't go overboard with the spray. I know if you get too much the plant just drops the leaves and gets working on growing new ones.
 

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Tordon won't kill everything, it'll leave the grass behind, and it's bloody pricey. It also leave residue in the soil that lasts about 5 years - so make sure your garden plans are at least that far out. It'll prevent any root veggies from growing. I have to use it on the leafy spurge we have here - it's the only thing available in Canada that'll kill it - at 520 freakin dollars per jug.....!!!!

If you want just dirt, you want a soil sterilant like cal-mix, but it too is a 5 year commitment.

Both of them will leach into water passing over it a well, so make sure there's nothing downstream.

-J.


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Discussion Starter #18
Tordon's about $20 a bottle here (maybe a pint?).

I have two different areas I'm talking about. One is along the road frontage where I'd like it to remain bare dirt until my (w)itchy neighbors either end up in a nursing home or casket (looking at about 15-20 years - just in time for me to retire in peace). This is also bordering a wetland, so there's issues of what can/cannot be sprayed.

The other spot, currently has the thistle outbreak, and is my future garden.

I did do a decent job of setting back the thistle along the road and it hasn't had the chance to grow like the garden site has. I haven't done anything other than spraying this year in the garden; since cutting it out of the woods 3 years ago and broadcasting clover and PTT seeds then. The thistle is really taking hold on that spot now, so I want to deal with it before it becomes a monoculture.
 

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Tordon's about $20 a bottle here (maybe a pint?).
SEND ME SOME!!!! PLEASE!!!!

I use tordon 22k - not sure if there's a difference or not, but I pay 520$ Canadian Dollars for 10 litres (2.5 gallons).

-J.
 
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