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Very interesting. I've read of many CP4 failures in the truck forums, luckily I never had any with the 2015 2500HD LML that I had.
 

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I work for a large school system and we have several f350 service trucks and there dropping HP pumps like snow falling. Most are getting around the 80-100K miles and take about 2 months for them to repair, waiting on parts, then cab has to be removed off the frame for repair.
 

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Man if that article is true, HOLY CRAP!

The part that the CP4 is a *cheaper* replacement for the reliable CP3 would really pi$$ me off!!
 

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I have seen a few failures in the eco diesel grand Cherokee but none in the rams yet and none in the cummins :good2:
 

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I run it year round on my Tractor. I have 150 gallons winterized and sitting in my shop. So it is easy to do I just put a bottle in the tank and I am covered. The fuel in town is winterized during the winter but I know what happens if it Jells up! If I had a new rig I would run it if I had that kind of a pump in it! The more I hear the less I want a new truck!

Just read this about the problem:
Something you should know about your diesel truck, specifically the CP4 Injection pump and the potential catastrophic damage that may be happening or already happened.
If you’ve been down this road before, don’t be left with a $10,000+ bill from the damage it causes: leaving metal shavings in the fuel rails, destroying injectors, and returning to the tank contaminating the entire system that needs to be replaced, and in some cases cracking the gear and throwing it through the front timing cover of your engine.


Everyone with a diesel knows the potential that they have with simple tuning and deletes. Previously on older models, there wasn’t much of an issue with the fuel system, but with the newer models there was a design change introduced as a cost reduction to the LML platform, (since a smaller amount of fuel is required when running the more efficient piezoelectric injectors). Even if you have a 100% stock truck your pump is still a ticking time bomb.
The new CP4 injection pump creates higher pressures with less volume meaning a more efficient pump, but with the lack of volume is a lack of lubrication, therefore creating these failures. In Europe the CP4 has been used for years with very little trouble, reason being is their fuel has more lubricity than our country's Ultra low sulfur diesel fuel (ULSD), and does not even come close to meeting the minimum spec for lubrication to keep highly stressed components like those hydraulic pistons in the pump lubricated.
You accelerate wear any time you fill up with ULSD. There is an assortment of additives on the market that aid in lubricating our poor quality fuel we have to use, and while it does help; it does not solve the problem with the CP4s lack of fuel in modern diesels, which creates more power than these pumps can handle, without some help from the aftermarket.
With the aftermarket there are finally ways to prevent these failures. The most popular for the Duramax platform, is to convert back to the proven CP3 used in 01-10 Duramax and 03 and up Cummins. (There is a reason Cummins still uses the CP3 - if that doesn’t tell you something about its durability). These kits are complete and come with everything you need to do the conversion on the 2011+ LML. This is also the most cost effective way to prevent a CP4 failure in a Duramax. Other companies offer a dual fueler kit to add a CP3 in conjunction with CP4 pump providing enough fuel for 1000hp or more. This is popular in the 6.7 Powerstroke application, that doesn’t offer a CP3 conversion kit. While it still keeps the CP4, it does take the stress off the pump meaning less wear for a truck that’s demanding more fuel.
Another important part of the fuel system is the filtration. With aftermarket lift pumps (Duramax's do not have lift pumps, just injection pumps), from companies like Fass or Airdog, they have built in fuel filters and water separators, so you can rest assured you are providing positive clean fuel pressure to your injection pump, (keeping the pump from having to pull a vacuum from the fuel tank, which will greatly reduce the stress on the injection pump). A lift pump is something we highly recommend on any diesel that comes through the shop tuned or not. A lift pump will help extend the life of your truck, and the extra filtration will pull out the contaminates and water in the fuel.
Now you may be wondering what the cost of these solutions for the CP4 injection pump are. There are several companies that offer conversion kits for LML’s with a new CP3 pump provided, or without ranging from $600-$1800. With options of modified CP3 pumps, some kits are in the $2500-$3000 range. Not all kits require the truck to be tuned or deleted and can be used on a 100% stock, emissions legal truck with no tuning required. The ECM does not care about the volume of fuel, it just wants to know the fuel rail pressure and regulates the pump by the FCA (fuel control actuator), to increase or decrease pressure. The dual fueler option is $2000-$3000 depending on if you choose a kit with or without a pump, and whether or not you want a modified CP3 or a stock one.
Lift pumps come in specific kits to fit your application and typically are a fairly straight forward install if you’re a DIY’er, kits range from $600-800 for most applications. All of these parts will be listed in time on my website for purchase and delivery. In the meantime call the shop or come in for any orders. We offer full installation of all the parts talked about and much more for your diesel truck.
Check out this website for all contact info and directions to the shop. Also visit our Facebook pages Race Ready Fabrication, LLC and One Stop Diesel Shop to keep up with any future updates.
LML CP4 failure tear down and why your 11-16 Duramax needs a lift pump! - YouTube
Corey Sadler
Owner and Operator
 

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I run it year round on my Tractor. I have 150 gallons winterized and sitting in my shop. So it is easy to do I just put a bottle in the tank and I am covered. The fuel in town is winterized during the winter but I know what happens if it Jells up! If I had a new rig I would run it if I had that kind of a pump in it! The more I hear the less I want a new truck!
I hear ya. I just want to live long enough to be the guy ripping on the new trucks and tractors saying, I will never get rid of the that old reliable tier 4, you just can’t trust this new stuff. I am just on the edge of being old enough to know when people were sure Chrysler’s new fangled electric ignition was crazy. It had been out ten years when I had one with it.
 

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Makes me wonder if it is worth running power-serve or another anti-gel year around for the lubrication?
When I got my first Powerstroke in late 07 up through today I run Ford's PM22A cetane booster and fuel lubricant in every tank of diesel.
There is no denying the CP4 is inferior to the CP3 or the Nippon Denso HP4 that GM went to in 17.
I had read the very high risks of owning modern diesel light truck engines and always bought oem extended warranties to hopefully cover any issues.
I hope they win the lawsuit and force Ford to extend its fuel system warranties and stimulates them to supply a better pump.
When you look at them, they are not extremely complex. I would think they could design one and produce it themselves instead of relying on the couple of large producers out there such as Bosch and Denso.
 

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Hiya,

As a new owner of a cp4 equipped truck, '17 Ford F350 this is something I've been following. jD4044m has very valid points and solutions. Before the days of emissions management on these light/medium Diesels, US fuel had enough sulfur in it to lubricate components without additive products. While the sulfur was great for pump life, it was also bad for emissions and any yellow metal in the fuel system. ( one of the reasons the fuel gages never worked correctly on most Diesel pickups after a year or so) Once the EPA mandated ULSD, it became a must to add some type of lubricity additive to keep these fuel lubricated pumps alive.

In my truck I use Amsoil All-in-One Diesel treatment at the highest mix ratio indicated. As the truck has 2600 miles on it, I wont know for a long time however the data sheet for the all in one states that in testing the wear scar was ~40% less than the allowable value.

Another huge factor in the failure of these pumps is water or DEF in the fuel. When the dealer pull one of these trucks down, the first thing they look for is corrosion of the steel/aluminum components indicating water. The absolutely quickest way to grenade a fuel lubed secondary pump is to introduce water into the fuel stream. It doesn't matter if its water droplets or emulsion with the fuel, any water will cause metal to metal contact and significant wear inside the pump. These systems CANNOT tolerate water emulsified with the fuel, it MUST be separated out with a "demulsifier" Diesel additive and removed from the filter sumps before it can enter the secondary pump. I hit the primary water drain on my truck weekly and don't let it sit with less than 1/2 tank. The amsoil all in one has a demulsifier, same as the Diesel Clean product I have used for 30 years.

Also, I fuel up at 3 stations I know have had no fuel issues for at least the last 10 years so hopefully they will continue to be as reliable going forward.

Like i said, I'll be living with this truck for at least as long as the factory warranty and we'll see how things go.
 

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Hiya,

As a new owner of a cp4 equipped truck, '17 Ford F350 this is something I've been following. jD4044m has very valid points and solutions. Before the days of emissions management on these light/medium Diesels, US fuel had enough sulfur in it to lubricate components without additive products. While the sulfur was great for pump life, it was also bad for emissions and any yellow metal in the fuel system. ( one of the reasons the fuel gages never worked correctly on most Diesel pickups after a year or so) Once the EPA mandated ULSD, it became a must to add some type of lubricity additive to keep these fuel lubricated pumps alive.

In my truck I use Amsoil All-in-One Diesel treatment at the highest mix ratio indicated. As the truck has 2600 miles on it, I wont know for a long time however the data sheet for the all in one states that in testing the wear scar was ~40% less than the allowable value.

Another huge factor in the failure of these pumps is water or DEF in the fuel. When the dealer pull one of these trucks down, the first thing they look for is corrosion of the steel/aluminum components indicating water. The absolutely quickest way to grenade a fuel lubed secondary pump is to introduce water into the fuel stream. It doesn't matter if its water droplets or emulsion with the fuel, any water will cause metal to metal contact and significant wear inside the pump. These systems CANNOT tolerate water emulsified with the fuel, it MUST be separated out with a "demulsifier" Diesel additive and removed from the filter sumps before it can enter the secondary pump. I hit the primary water drain on my truck weekly and don't let it sit with less than 1/2 tank. The amsoil all in one has a demulsifier, same as the Diesel Clean product I have used for 30 years.

Also, I fuel up at 3 stations I know have had no fuel issues for at least the last 10 years so hopefully they will continue to be as reliable going forward.

Like i said, I'll be living with this truck for at least as long as the factory warranty and we'll see how things go.
I've been getting tractor diesel at a local marathon that i go by every day. The local telecom company fills up their fleet at this same station every morning. Guess what? The other day the tractor starts bowing white smoke. At first i thought the head gasket may have gone bad, so I started looking around. The separator had about 1/4" of water in it. Well I drained it all out and replaced it.
 

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I had considered diesel pickups in the past but the lack of power compared to the big blocks that I bought didn't impress me, although I was only doing typical truck stuff and plowing snow commercially, not pulling heavy trailers.
I knew they were reliable long lasting engines though even so in my climate rust always took over before an engine would wear out.

What drew me in to the modern common rail diesels was the outstanding power and performance that just seems to get better every year.
It is a deal with the devil because most of us know that just one small problem can rapidly cascade into a fuel system or engine replacement.

They just run so damn good now I just tell them to shut up and take my money!:gizmo:
 

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My brother has an 09 F350 with a 6.4 and he got into some watered fuel that grenaded his pump, and engine to the tune of $19,000. His insurance company footed the lionshare of the repairs and promptly dropped him. This was 1 incident and the station refused to take responsibility. I'm not sure whether the insurance company got anywhere with them but that's some scary schit. :nunu:
 

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I had considered diesel pickups in the past but the lack of power compared to the big blocks that I bought didn't impress me, although I was only doing typical truck stuff and plowing snow commercially, not pulling heavy trailers.
I knew they were reliable long lasting engines though even so in my climate rust always took over before an engine would wear out.

What drew me in to the modern common rail diesels was the outstanding power and performance that just seems to get better every year.
It is a deal with the devil because most of us know that just one small problem can rapidly cascade into a fuel system or engine replacement.

They just run so damn good now I just tell them to shut up and take my money!:gizmo:

100% where I was/am. Don’t really need it but wouldn’t want to live without it now. Just remember 99.9% of the things we worry about never happen. I also like to live by though the what would I do if I wasn’t scared theory.
 

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My brother has an 09 F350 with a 6.4 and he got into some watered fuel that grenaded his pump, and engine to the tune of $19,000. His insurance company footed the lionshare of the repairs and promptly dropped him. This was 1 incident and the station refused to take responsibility. I'm not sure whether the insurance company got anywhere with them but that's some scary schit. :nunu:
I always hate that about insurance companies... You pay them big premiums to cover you for losses but if you ever have one and need them to pay then they either jack your premiums even worse or drop you. It's like they were only taking your money in anticipation of not having to ever pay out. Dicks.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I stopped by where I buy my stanadyne, they rebuild diesel pump's etc for tractors and asked them what they knew. Note my interpretation my not be exactly what they were saying but pretty close. They said that they had many people having problems with the pumps but they were all Fords, and Ford's response was always water in fuel. None of the people that had the problem had ever gotten a display saying that they had water in the fuel. They suggested if you have a problem, take a sample of your fuel b/4 going to ford and send it off to blackstone for testing.
We got into the discussion on last Jan. fuel gelling problem, again they said that all most all the people that had gelling problems were fords and tractors, and the reason they said ford had the problem was at some point they eliminated the fuel heater in their fuel system, which I wasn't aware of, my chev's and cummings had fuel heaters. So I went looking and the old fords had them but I can't find any reference to the 6.7's having one, the only thing I could find is the DFCM has a thermal recirculation valve to send the warm fuel back to the pump but no heater.
They are of the opinion that one of the reasons that the pumps are failing at least in the North, is the fact that when it's extremely cold even if you don't gel up it puts more pressure on the pump. The other thing I found interesting is when I bought my JD I was talking to the service manager about them gelling, and he told me that the new low sulfur diesel when it gelled it was more like sand, when mine gelled this winter it was more like cow fat. They showed me pictures of some of the tractors and they all looked like mine. The part I found interesting is I couldn't remove the filter even after it had been in to house warming. They said that the refineries have been mixing in bio diesel, even though the pumps don't state that to be the case. They said that the problem is they are not removing glycerine from the bio diesel, and when this gells, applying heat to it doesn't un gel it like regular diesel does and the anti gel stuff doesn't do anything to keep the glycerine from gelling.:flag_of_truce:
so there suggestion was to put another set up on like the FASS, which depending on the combinations, has another filter, another water seperator, a filter that removes air, and a fuel heater in it. They don't install nor do they sell the product, so I'm inclined to agree with much of what they say. a friend of mine was buy the diesel from the same location as I was, he has a cummins and had no problems with the fuel, we even bought on the same day once.
I have a friend that had the previous ford motor and pump, had to replace the entire fuel system, bought a 6.7 shut it off, wouldn't start, towed in, replaced the entire fuel system again, both time ford said water in fuel, he never had a light on, so I'm not sure that you can trust the WIF light on these machines. I think that was the majority of the discussion, they have both switched to duramax's:flag_of_truce:
 
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