Green Tractor Talk banner
1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
210 Posts
Well gentlemen.. now that I'm getting used to it I feel like putting the 260 to work on a large project. That said, I need some advice...
We bought a 20yr old house back in Nov of 2013. During the inspections it became known that the crawl space had a mud line that came ~8" high in some areas. Since there was no damage to the foundation anywhere I, for better or worse, wasn't incredibly concerned. After moving in I dug a 40" deep x ~36" dia hole and installed a sump basin in the lowest part of the crawlspace. I sat the basin on several inches of stone and filled the void between the hole and the sides of the basin with stone. My thought was if I ever decided to install a foundation drain, I could tile the drain to the stone pit surrounding the basin and that would be good enough? At any rate, since installing the sump pump the water has never gotten as high as it was and I've only ever noticed moisture under the plastic on the crawl floor a few times; during major rain events.

All this said, I am now planning to tile my downspouts away from the house to try and dry up the area around the house. Currently the downspouts just eject on kick plates and the dog seems to love running through the puddles surrounding them on his way back to the door. I will also be installing linear flowerbeds along the exterior foundation so I'd like to get this done first so I don't have to dig up the beds later. Its probably worth noting that my house sits on a bit of a high spot, so much so that my sump ejection line will siphon on its own once the water starts flowing. Despite the slope away from the house it seems the clay within our soil forms a bit of a bowl around most of our house, trapping water. It also doesn't help that the top few inches of the soil is a fairly loose mix of sandy clay followed by feet of hard packed clay so for days following a rain you sink in and flood your shoes.

My questions are:
Should I install a french drain at the bottom of our foundation? If so, there may be enough slope not to have tie the drain to the sump basin but I'd need to survey the drop off to know for sure. I'm optimistic that if I just got the roof runoff away from the foundation the sump pumps current configuration would be enough to keep the surrounding water table down below the foundation.

Assuming I don't need to install a french drain at the bottom of the foundation - what sort of tile should I use to carry the roof runoff from downspout to point of discharge? If I don't need a french drain it seems solid corrugated pipe would be better than weeping tile. The vast majority of the tile length would be covered by flower beds so the vast majority won't be driven over. Though there will be ~20ft toward the discharge point that will be covered by grass, and I'll be mowing with my 1025R.

If I do need to install a french drain and there isn't enough slope to tile the drain away from the house I'll need to tie the drain to the sump basin. If I have to utilize the sump basin I would like to not tie the downspouts to the drain.. I don't want the sump to have to pump all of the roof runoff given there's enough slope to handle that water. To achieve this I figure I'd just tile the downspouts to solid pipe above the french drain in the trench.

I'm fairly exhausted while writing this so sorry if my thoughts seem half baked. Feel free to ask for any additional detail you may need.

Thanks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,870 Posts
Well first i will comment on your crawl.
If you get water in a crawl and you are on hill, you are probably getting roof water runoff or you have settlement around foundation and water is running towards house in heavy rain.
That being said. If you have a shallow crawl and can run a pipe out of the lowest point or on top of footing, why not? Can't hurt that's for sure.
Especially if you are on a hill and run a gravity flow pipe out to open air quickly.

Gutters. Absolutely plumb your gutters if you have the means and terrain to do so.
I like you live on a hill. Built my house, backfilled my house. Had splashblocks for gutters. Well couple years go by and ground settles slightly around house. Couple big rains go by. One day i'm in basement and reach for a tackle box on a shelf against wall. I pull it out and it has long white hair growing on it! Flip the bottom shelf up and the same mold hair has completely engulfed bottom of particle board shelf.
I was getting water weeping in along where slab meets wall from the water trapped against the foundation outside.

Long story short i proceeded to commence with plumbing gutters and adding some more topsoil to settled spots. Haven't had a problem since then and that was about 8 years ago.

Luckily i worked a few demolition jobs around that time, one was at a turn of the century steel mill.
I ran 4" PVC into a trunk line of 5". The 5 i got for free on the job that they were tossing.
I also love industrial antiquity junk. And love the late 19th early 20th century industrial architecture.
I scored about 10 pieces of double bell ended ductile iron pipes. I cut about a foot off including the bells and ran them down into a fernco rubber joint coupling that attached it to the PVC under ground. I left the ends of the downpipe up a few inches so i could reach into bell and clean out the leaf debris that collects on a piece of wire mesh i cut to fit in bell.

Now obviously this isn't needed by any means but you get the idea.
As soon as the ground thaws we are doing my buddy next doors back gutters. He has the same problem. He did the front a while back but never did the back.

Tree Plant Branch Rust Twig

Leaf Branch Tree Twig Plant
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,290 Posts
If your house is at the top of a slope then I would guess all you'd need to do is channel that roof runoff away from your foundation. You can use corrugated pipe (I used 4" PVC sched 40...) and as long as you get it 2' under ground or so, there shouldn't be any problem with driving over it with your tractor.

If you don't have enough slope to drain it away, you might consider digging and putting in a dry well 20' or 30' out from your foundation. Dig down deep enough so that you are below the grade of your crawlspace floor by 2' or 3' and run your downspouts into that. You can bury the entire dry well once it's setup if you want to.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
210 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks for the input guys.. I know I have enough slope away from the house to carry the roof run off away assuming I don't have to take it deep underground. Frost line here is 6" so unless I were going to install a french drain down at the same depth as the bottom of the footer and tie the downspouts to that using gravity won't be a problem. Though now that I think about it.. my sump basin is probably below the depth of the footer and when it siphons I'm pretty sure it will entirely drain itself so I may have enough of a height differential to use gravity even on a foundation drain.

So I guess my question is whether or not I need to install a foundation drain in addition tiling the downspouts away from the house. From what you all are saying it sounds like just getting that roof runoff away from the house should do the trick.. but I don't want to have to dig the trench twice either.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
253 Posts
I would recommend the 4" PVC, over the corrugated , try to have 1/8" drop per foot. As far as the depth in the ground , go with what you can, I put mine in and due to rock I could only go a couple inches, enough to get grass to grow, about 25-30' long and brought it to ground level to drain out on top of the grass, and I've driven over them with a 3500 lb. tractor I wouldn't recommend driving pararell over the pipe but angle or perpendicular should be no issue. My entire septic drain field is only 6" under ground and the septic specialist that installed said to keep off with trucks and heavy loads but said my 1025 no ballast weight, no load in bucket, should not be an issue, weight per sq, in of tire on the ground is not excessive.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
210 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Well first i will comment on your crawl.
If you get water in a crawl and you are on hill, you are probably getting roof water runoff or you have settlement around foundation and water is running towards house in heavy rain.
That being said. If you have a shallow crawl and can run a pipe out of the lowest point or on top of footing, why not? Can't hurt that's for sure.
Especially if you are on a hill and run a gravity flow pipe out to open air quickly.

Gutters. Absolutely plumb your gutters if you have the means and terrain to do so.
I like you live on a hill. Built my house, backfilled my house. Had splashblocks for gutters. Well couple years go by and ground settles slightly around house. Couple big rains go by. One day i'm in basement and reach for a tackle box on a shelf against wall. I pull it out and it has long white hair growing on it! Flip the bottom shelf up and the same mold hair has completely engulfed bottom of particle board shelf.
I was getting water weeping in along where slab meets wall from the water trapped against the foundation outside.

Long story short i proceeded to commence with plumbing gutters and adding some more topsoil to settled spots. Haven't had a problem since then and that was about 8 years ago.

Luckily i worked a few demolition jobs around that time, one was at a turn of the century steel mill.
I ran 4" PVC into a trunk line of 5". The 5 i got for free on the job that they were tossing.
I also love industrial antiquity junk. And love the late 19th early 20th century industrial architecture.
I scored about 10 pieces of double bell ended ductile iron pipes. I cut about a foot off including the bells and ran them down into a fernco rubber joint coupling that attached it to the PVC under ground. I left the ends of the downpipe up a few inches so i could reach into bell and clean out the leaf debris that collects on a piece of wire mesh i cut to fit in bell.

Now obviously this isn't needed by any means but you get the idea.
As soon as the ground thaws we are doing my buddy next doors back gutters. He has the same problem. He did the front a while back but never did the back.

View attachment 41642

View attachment 41643
I really like the look of that install.. think I'm going to have to try something similar myself.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
210 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I would recommend the 4" PVC, over the corrugated , try to have 1/8" drop per foot. As far as the depth in the ground , go with what you can, I put mine in and due to rock I could only go a couple inches, enough to get grass to grow, about 25-30' long and brought it to ground level to drain out on top of the grass, and I've driven over them with a 3500 lb. tractor I wouldn't recommend driving pararell over the pipe but angle or perpendicular should be no issue. My entire septic drain field is only 6" under ground and the septic specialist that installed said to keep off with trucks and heavy loads but said my 1025 no ballast weight, no load in bucket, should not be an issue, weight per sq, in of tire on the ground is not excessive.
How hard is it to wed corrugated to pvc? To cut cost I'd like to use corrugated under the flower beds. Now that I think about it I don't know that I'd necessarily even need to trench along most of that length, depending how deep I make the flower beds. I may just bury the tile within the bed itself.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,283 Posts
From a building officials point of view with 42 years in the construction industry; (Be Nice) if you have a frost wall only, there would be no need to install a footing drain, however, you mentioned you have that crawl space, (I don't remember how much room you may have under your floor joists to the actual ground underneath, sorry). I for one would install a footing drain at the intersection of the foundation footing and floor level. The IRC (international residential code) tells you to lay the drain tile (usually perforated 4" PVC I hate that coiled 4" crap) and cover that tile with at least 6" of stone, 3/4" or better and cover the stone with silt fabric. The foundation should be also "painted/coated" with asphalt to keep the foundation dry, lay it on thick, you don't what to repeat this ever again, of course this is done prior to the footing drain being installed. If you have a poured cement foundation make sure the snap tie holes are filled with hydraulic cement and if block, no voids in the cement. Back fill with good draining soil not clay with a pitch of 6" in 10 feet away from the house. The footing drain is only a sub drain, this drain is not for carrying surface water away. All gutters should be piped away from the house with solid PVC if you don't have the pitch necessary to carry that water away, never allow gutter drains to drain into the footing drain. You mentioned you have a sump in the floor, please don't put gutter water into the sump, that defeats the purpose of the sub surface sump.. If you don't have the necessary area to allow natural flow to daylight, swals can help and as stated a dry well will work too, but the drywell has to be large enough to handle what you get for water or you will be back with your first issue. Footing drains are a relatively cheap way to insure you will not have future problems with water if installed correctly.. Dry wells for this use should be engineered or just go oversize big time, think about how large an area has to be to take on all the water that comes off your roof... The one other thing is sumps rely on electrify to work and if you are away........ Sumps should be used as a last resort.. good luck..
To answer one post I just read, you can put both pipes in the same trench, gutter is solid and when the footing drain exits away from the footing that can also be solid at this point..
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,283 Posts
How hard is it to wed corrugated to pvc? To cut cost I'd like to use corrugated under the flower beds. Now that I think about it I don't know that I'd necessarily even need to trench along most of that length, depending how deep I make the flower beds. I may just bury the tile within the bed itself.
The manufacturer of the corrugated tile have parts that fit for other uses, Tee's etc. so they may have a fitting that does what you want to do or get the right sized Fernco fitting and clamp in place.
Jeff
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,870 Posts
I would recommend the 4" PVC, over the corrugated , try to have 1/8" drop per foot. As far as the depth in the ground , go with what you can, I put mine in and due to rock I could only go a couple inches, enough to get grass to grow, about 25-30' long and brought it to ground level to drain out on top of the grass, and I've driven over them with a 3500 lb. tractor I wouldn't recommend driving pararell over the pipe but angle or perpendicular should be no issue. My entire septic drain field is only 6" under ground and the septic specialist that installed said to keep off with trucks and heavy loads but said my 1025 no ballast weight, no load in bucket, should not be an issue, weight per sq, in of tire on the ground is not excessive.
Agreed.
4" schedule 40 can be buried very shallow with no worries about passing over with a tractor or even a car for that matter.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BigJim55

·
Registered
Joined
·
210 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
From a building officials point of view with 42 years in the construction industry; (Be Nice) if you have a frost wall only, there would be no need to install a footing drain, however, you mentioned you have that crawl space, (I don't remember how much room you may have under your floor joists to the actual ground underneath, sorry). I for one would install a footing drain at the intersection of the foundation footing and floor level. The IRC (international residential code) tells you to lay the drain tile (usually perforated 4" PVC I hate that coiled 4" crap) and cover that tile with at least 6" of stone, 3/4" or better and cover the stone with silt fabric. The foundation should be also "painted/coated" with asphalt to keep the foundation dry, lay it on thick, you don't what to repeat this ever again, of course this is done prior to the footing drain being installed. If you have a poured cement foundation make sure the snap tie holes are filled with hydraulic cement and if block, no voids in the cement. Back fill with good draining soil not clay with a pitch of 6" in 10 feet away from the house. The footing drain is only a sub drain, this drain is not for carrying surface water away. All gutters should be piped away from the house with solid PVC if you don't have the pitch necessary to carry that water away, never allow gutter drains to drain into the footing drain. You mentioned you have a sump in the floor, please don't put gutter water into the sump, that defeats the purpose of the sub surface sump.. If you don't have the necessary area to allow natural flow to daylight, swals can help and as stated a dry well will work too, but the drywell has to be large enough to handle what you get for water or you will be back with your first issue. Footing drains are a relatively cheap way to insure you will not have future problems with water if installed correctly.. Dry wells for this use should be engineered or just go oversize big time, think about how large an area has to be to take on all the water that comes off your roof... The one other thing is sumps rely on electrify to work and if you are away........ Sumps should be used as a last resort.. good luck..
To answer one post I just read, you can put both pipes in the same trench, gutter is solid and when the footing drain exits away from the footing that can also be solid at this point..
Throughout most of our crawl there is 3-4ft clear.

After climbing around in the crawlspace today it really seems the sump pump is doing the job as far as the house/foundation is concerned. Our yard (10ft off the house) is still a swamp but our crawlspace is bone dry. I think the yard is so swampy b/c the roof runoff is being discharged at the bottom of the downspout then flows down the slope away from the house to where the yard kind of flattens out (in most areas there is a decent enough slope for at least 10ft from the exterior wall). Since our soil is sandy clay on top of hard packed clay it seems the bowl formed by the hard clay fills up and then the loose sandy layer on top becomes very unstable - and remains that way for several days following a moderate rain.

All this said, it seems if I tile the roof run off away it should help reduce the amount of water filling said clay bowl. Ultimately I need to regrade the front and rear yards but that'll need to wait until I can afford a few 3pt implements and possibly until I can expand our pond. The thought being I could use excavated soil from the pond to fill in low spots in the yard. My front yard already has a shallow swale but once I regrade I may make it more pronounced. Guess I have my end of year bonus ear marked for spring 2016 projects.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BigJim55 and tj1

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,283 Posts
Throughout most of our crawl there is 3-4ft clear.

After climbing around in the crawlspace today it really seems the sump pump is doing the job as far as the house/foundation is concerned. Our yard (10ft off the house) is still a swamp but our crawlspace is bone dry. I think the yard is so swampy b/c the roof runoff is being discharged at the bottom of the downspout then flows down the slope away from the house to where the yard kind of flattens out (in most areas there is a decent enough slope for at least 10ft from the exterior wall). Since our soil is sandy clay on top of hard packed clay it seems the bowl formed by the hard clay fills up and then the loose sandy layer on top becomes very unstable - and remains that way for several days following a moderate rain.

All this said, it seems if I tile the roof run off away it should help reduce the amount of water filling said clay bowl. Ultimately I need to regrade the front and rear yards but that'll need to wait until I can afford a few 3pt implements and possibly until I can expand our pond. The thought being I could use excavated soil from the pond to fill in low spots in the yard. My front yard already has a shallow swale but once I regrade I may make it more pronounced. Guess I have my end of year bonus ear marked for spring 2016 projects.
Good luck, clay is always an issue and once you get those gutters piped away you should be good.. if I dig up anything in my pond I get caught by Conservation,, Ma has this little thing called GIS, and DEP knows what you are doing including peeing in the woods! Snoops!
Have fun and buying new implements is also fun too! Jeff
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
210 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
if I dig up anything in my pond I get caught by Conservation,, Ma has this little thing called GIS, and DEP knows what you are doing including peeing in the woods!
So you can't even dig your pond out?

Initially I plan on just scrapping the 20yrs of muck up from the bank half way around.. to make it nicer to swim in; and the muck should be great for the garden (45'x70'). Then eventually I'd like to clear some of my land and increase the pond from ~1/4 acre to 1/2~3/4 acre. I grew up in corn country up in Ohio.. up there about every farmer had their own equipment and dug their own ponds. I'm sure the majority of the ponds I swam in as a kid weren't 'legally' dug. Guess I should look into how micro managing uncle sam is here in NC.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BigJim55

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,290 Posts
if I dig up anything in my pond I get caught by Conservation,, Ma has this little thing called GIS, and DEP knows what you are doing including peeing in the woods! Snoops!
Ha! I have a friend that owns some property in Sherborn. He was clearing out the undergrowth in a section of the woods and the MA DEP stopped by because there is a low spot that ends up as a vernal pool in the spring and ducks have been known to nest in it. The stupid puddle is about 10' in diameter and 1' deep. It forms every spring and disappears by mid-May. But MA DEP is enforcing a 100' buffer zone around that puddle so he can't touch anything within that 100' buffer zone. :laugh:
 
  • Like
Reactions: tj1 and BigJim55

·
Registered
Joined
·
210 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Ha! I have a friend that owns some property in Sherborn. He was clearing out the undergrowth in a section of the woods and the MA DEP stopped by because there is a low spot that ends up as a vernal pool in the spring and ducks have been known to nest in it. The stupid puddle is about 10' in diameter and 1' deep. It forms every spring and disappears by mid-May. But MA DEP is enforcing a 100' buffer zone around that puddle so he can't touch anything within that 100' buffer zone. :laugh:
I'm an avid sportsman and conservationist but this is far too intrusive for me. Now if they wanted to pay me to maintain said seasonal pond that may be a different story.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tj1

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,283 Posts
I'm an avid sportsman and conservationist but this is far too intrusive for me. Now if they wanted to pay me to maintain said seasonal pond that may be a different story.
Ma DEP and the conservation committee don't even want me to mow my grass around "my" Pond.. I dug the pond in 1984 and actually have created a very viable area for wildlife, pond creatures etc. Plus it is absolutely beautiful. It is spring fed with no entrance and only exits during high water months into the woods!. They do not care. I had a little mud on my backhoe tires a few years ago and the driver that picked up the hoe said; look at all that mud where did you get it? I told him down by the pond and he started about that area belonging to the Con Com people and this guy was a farmer all his life with cows crapping in the streams and ponds he dug, now he's high and mighty.. I told him if any conservation people come snooping I will talk to his employer! Never had a visitor.. I also use approved chemicals to keep the pond clear with no cattails etc.. You could swim if you wanted to along with some Blood suckers attached! Here is one picture the wife took last spring; you can only see part of the pond but you get the picture, no pun intended!.
Jeff
View attachment 41723 :nunu:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,283 Posts
Ha! I have a friend that owns some property in Sherborn. He was clearing out the undergrowth in a section of the woods and the MA DEP stopped by because there is a low spot that ends up as a vernal pool in the spring and ducks have been known to nest in it. The stupid puddle is about 10' in diameter and 1' deep. It forms every spring and disappears by mid-May. But MA DEP is enforcing a 100' buffer zone around that puddle so he can't touch anything within that 100' buffer zone. :laugh:
That's what I am talking about, a little overboard in my opinion.. They use the satellites to spy.. They know if you do anything and don't get caught with a "yellow JD machine" sticks out like sore thumb! then you are in trouble..

View attachment 41724
 
  • Like
Reactions: BigJim55

·
Registered
Joined
·
210 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Ma DEP and the conservation committee don't even want me to mow my grass around "my" Pond.. I dug the pond in 1984 and actually have created a very viable area for wildlife, pond creatures etc. Plus it is absolutely beautiful. It is spring fed with no entrance and only exits during high water months into the woods!. They do not care. I had a little mud on my backhoe tires a few years ago and the driver that picked up the hoe said; look at all that mud where did you get it? I told him down by the pond and he started about that area belonging to the Con Com people and this guy was a farmer all his life with cows crapping in the streams and ponds he dug, now he's high and mighty.. I told him if any conservation people come snooping I will talk to his employer! Never had a visitor.. I also use approved chemicals to keep the pond clear with no cattails etc.. You could swim if you wanted to along with some Blood suckers attached! Here is one picture the wife took last spring; you can only see part of the pond but you get the picture, no pun intended!.
Jeff
View attachment 41723 :nunu:
That kind of crap would have me selling and moving to another state immediately. Though after having lived a few years in the south even the winters up north would have me on the run..
 
  • Like
Reactions: tj1 and BigJim55

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,543 Posts
That kind of crap would have me selling and moving to another state immediately. Though after having lived a few years in the south even the winters up north would have me on the run..
jklaus ; I have wanted a pond since 1985 I had no place on my first and second property's. in 2003 I moved to where I'm at now. two summers ago I asked the local excavator guys to dig me a small pond, as I figured my time was about up, his answer-- spy satellite now---wow was about all I could say. now my 5 acres is in like a swamp on one side of the creek, but over the years I have cleaned all the white thorns up and burned them, all the bad weeping willows that had gotten ruin in the ice storms, and now I can't have a small pond because the creek runs thru my property which I would never touch with the pond. so this damn spying from the air is very true in my area, which doesn't make a lotta sense when all my neighors cow **** and p--ss in this creek that runs behind my house.:spy: they are watching u these days big jim:laugh:
 
  • Like
Reactions: tj1

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,283 Posts
That kind of crap would have me selling and moving to another state immediately. Though after having lived a few years in the south even the winters up north would have me on the run..
I have a friend that lived behind my property on another road we both bordered and he moved to NC to get away from all this tax and spying stuff he hated zoning too! He is a professional quarter mile guy and runs the pro circuit around the country. He also has a neighbor that makes great hooch! He dug a pond and could care less who caught him! He also has somewhere in the order of 50 acres of land with an orchard. We have had people move because they couldn't build a shed to close to the property lines! I have to wonder who thinks up these crazy rules.. In the boonies, who really cares as long as you are not destroying land?? When I had my business I knew not to go anywhere near wetlands or you would pay the price for doing so. Fines and delays cost way to much to deal with. Plus you get a moniker you do not want with the state people! Good luck Jeff
 
  • Like
Reactions: jklaus
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top