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So lets say you manage to find the worlds worst made in China oil filter for your new diesel truck, and it disintegrates and ruins your engine. FTC's got your back?
 

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Nationwide car insurance got into hot water many, many yrs ago, for installing less than new replacement parts on cars in body shops. big stint over it. then they brought out the blue plan--and u could pick where u wanted ur vehicle fixed at then.

i don't know who got after them, maybe the insurance regulation company:dunno:but somebody did back then.
 

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So lets say you manage to find the worlds worst made in China oil filter for your new diesel truck, and it disintegrates and ruins your engine. FTC's got your back?
Well, no. If the filter "disintegrates" the engine failure would be a result of the filter failure, not a defect in material or workmanship of the engine builder. Now, if you utilized another aftermarket filter and the engine fails and the filter was not the cause, yes they'd have your back--eventually.
 

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Think this is targeting some of those auto warranties that I see where they have a million mile warranty as long as you get the vehicle serviced at their dealer. This is just saying that you don't have to get it serviced there. You can do it yourself or at an independent shop as long as you keep the records you should be good.

EDIT:

The most interesting part of this was the section on the warranty stickers. No more warranty void if removed. Not that they really sopped my anyhow.
 

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Now, if you utilized another aftermarket filter and the engine fails and the filter was not the cause, yes they'd have your back--eventually.
There lies the rub. My cynical mind goes into overdrive because I know how this generally will fall out. The manufacturer decides what is and what isnt a contributing part. Unless a person is willing to A hire an attorney schooled in such matters and B willing to continue feeding that beast until he or she gets what's rightfully theirs, I see no significant difference in how these will be handled. Corporate America has long learned the calculated risk system and they know all too well most people are unwilling and unable to afford a level playing field. It's a nice gesture but real world positive outcome for ground level consumers? Color me a skeptic.
 

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I'm certainly not attempting to throw shade on the OP.

I just feel that many modern pieces of equipment have genuinely been tested and developed to function reliably using components of known construction.
When I produce parts for companies assembling machines or mobile equipment they require certifications of origin, metallurgy and documentation of quality. We need to send MSDS sheets for rust preventative oils or lubricants if the parts require them.

Aftermarket companies make up their own mind about what materials or quality standards they wish to apply.
Now I know some aftermarket companies try and differentiate themselves by attempting to produce a superior product. A man has to have some knowledge of the materials used, which nearly always is not public information in order to compare performance parameters.

I think it is grossly unfair to expect an auto manufacturer to warranty their product even if an owner installs sub specification replacement parts and maintenance items.

If they wish to do this then they should force aftermarket producers to prove that their parts perform to or beat the every one of the OEM's specifications. This action would likely eliminate the aftermarkets price advantage.

I can't tell you how many youtube videos I have watched dudes open a dozen different oil filters to show many of them are constructed poorly.
It is just so much easier for me to buy the OEM's parts and have at least some level of confidence that what you installed did not create a failure.

I also know that Donaldson and others produce parts for OEM's, but I don't want to even get started with some ignorant service advisor telly me about how the "wrong" filter caused prospective damage. My Ford has a long warranty, and my Ford will wear Ford parts.
 

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Amen, Jeff B

When you think about the price difference between a bargain oil filter and an OEM filter, it is what, less than $5.00? If that? Is it really worth the risk of exposing yourself to all that hassle if something does awry?
 

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I'm certainly not attempting to throw shade on the OP.

I just feel that many modern pieces of equipment have genuinely been tested and developed to function reliably using components of known construction.
When I produce parts for companies assembling machines or mobile equipment they require certifications of origin, metallurgy and documentation of quality. We need to send MSDS sheets for rust preventative oils or lubricants if the parts require them.

Aftermarket companies make up their own mind about what materials or quality standards they wish to apply.
Now I know some aftermarket companies try and differentiate themselves by attempting to produce a superior product. A man has to have some knowledge of the materials used, which nearly always is not public information in order to compare performance parameters.

I think it is grossly unfair to expect an auto manufacturer to warranty their product even if an owner installs sub specification replacement parts and maintenance items.

If they wish to do this then they should force aftermarket producers to prove that their parts perform to or beat the every one of the OEM's specifications. This action would likely eliminate the aftermarkets price advantage.

I can't tell you how many youtube videos I have watched dudes open a dozen different oil filters to show many of them are constructed poorly.
It is just so much easier for me to buy the OEM's parts and have at least some level of confidence that what you installed did not create a failure.

I also know that Donaldson and others produce parts for OEM's, but I don't want to even get started with some ignorant service advisor telly me about how the "wrong" filter caused prospective damage. My Ford has a long warranty, and my Ford will wear Ford parts.
While I agree in general principle, it is going to be a tough battle. As you pointed out there are all kinds of videos out there where people cut open oil filters and compare it to others. Some are completely junk and sometimes the OEMs are barely better. It isn't like Ford, GM, Dodge or any other manufacturer is going to put a $100 oil filter in a vehicle.

I agree that things are tested and developed to perform to a standard but they also factor in cost. If not every vehicle on the road would cost $200,000 to buy new and simple oil changes would be $1000. Yeah, making up numbers but the point is that affordability is factored in. If you are driving a Ferrari or Lamborghini a $1000 for a basic 3000 mile (or whatever the interval is for an oil change) service can be expected. On a F150 or a Silverado, the customer will flip out. So on a part that is going to be considered a maintenance item, like brakes, filters, fluids and such the factor in cost vs expected lifespan.

They also will factor in warranty period and expected life. Oil and oil filters are always one of those things that everyone has an opinion on. Lets pick something else. How about a water pump. That is something that is pretty common to replace, is widely available on the aftermarket and could be considered a wear item. Lets say you have a vehicle with a timing belt and you are replacing the timing belt every 100K miles. Some are done earlier than that and some later. Depends on the vehicle. Typically on most vehicles I have owned and worked on, at around 100K I am going to do a timing belt. Typically on these vehicles, part of that "service interval" includes replacing other components as long as you are in that deep. Many times those items are things like water pumps, belt tensioners, accessory belts. For some of these, they may be still serviceable but you either had to remove them to get to the timing belt or it is so easy to do that you might as well replace it because you might not get to 200K miles before the original fails anyhow. A manufacturer knows that the water pump replacement is part of the timing belt service since they specified what should be replaced. When they are designing said water pump, should they add to their design consideration that it should last 500,000 miles? That will drive up the cost of that part and the majority of the vehicles would never see that many miles. Or they can reduce the cost and make one that lasts 120K miles. That in turn makes the vehicle production cost lower. There are typically a lot of options for aftermarket on this. The OEM might last 120K miles but so does an aftermarket. Maybe an aftermarket part is readily available at your local parts store but the dealer to get an OEM is 60 miles away and they don't have any. Sure now you can order off the internet but availability is a factor. Maybe there is a manufacturer design defect that is corrected in the aftermarket world. Everyone makes mistakes, even OEMs. There are times that this is why the aftermarket part was created, to fix a design defect that the manufacturer refuses to address as they don't see it as a "problem".

There are things that I replace with OEM parts and there simply are things that I do not. That kind of gets into where I have seen the Magnuson Act which is referred to in this article. More typically where this comes into effect is when you have a warranty claim that is denied because you have made modifications to the vehicle. It more typically comes up in discussions around someone that has or is considering applying a tune/chip to increase performance and are concerned about the warranty being voided. A modification like this can void your warranty but the Magnuson Act protects the consumer in certain ways. For instance lets say you tune a car and the left driver's door speaker fails. Will the fact that you have modified the vehicle in a way for performance impact your general warranty on the vehicle? No. They cannot deny the warranty. Now lets say the same speaker had failed but rather than install a chip, you installed an aftermarket stereo, amp and sub. Well now we are getting into an area where someone could reasonably say that your modifications may have contributed to the failure of the part. You were no longer using the part within the design specifications. Same example with the only modification being the stereo and even though they denied the warranty claim on the speaker they can't deny a later claim when the transmission goes out. Hard to prove that the stereo had anything to do with the transmission. Now if you chipped it that might be a different answer because the two could be linked.

Where this gets tough is where do you draw the line. So you say you only use OEM parts and that is fine. Should someone have their warranty voided if they use Bosch wiper blades instead of OEM? Lets say it is a case of using an aftermarket water pump. Well if I replaced it as preventative maintenance at 100K miles and it goes out at 5K miles later Why would I go to the dealer for a warranty repair? The aftermarket part probably has a warranty though so I would go that route. If the water pump went out on a one year old vehicle with 10K miles, why would I have fixed it myself? It would have gone to the dealer for repair and I would assume they would use an OEM part. That is where I don't see this being as big of a deal as it sounds. Oil filters always creates a big debate and I get that there are some out there that are little more than a coffee filter stuffed in a metal can. Should your warranty be voided if you didn't use the OEM one? Well what was the failure? Did the oil filter explode and the engine seize up because you drove it with no oil? Well then maybe you are on the hook. Amsoil filters are highly rated and probably are better than OEM. They also cost more so it isn't like you are using it for a cheap alternative. So then do you say well you can use aftermarket filters as long as they cost more than OEM. Well then what happens if they charge $30 for OEM but they jack up the price on that coffee filter in a can to where it costs $40.

What if the car was hit in a parking lot and it broke the bumper. An aftermarket one is used rather than OEM and the alternator goes out. Should they void the warranty? That is where this debate can go on and on.

I get your point of view but it isn't always that simple.
 

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Sennister,

I agree with your conclusions with a few exceptions. Let's consider your water pump example, as coincidentally, I just had one fail last month. It failed at 61,000 miles, which was beyond the 3yr-36,000 mile basic warranty. However, as this vehicle had a 6yr 100,000 power train warranty, which includes water pumps, it was covered by that warranty. As it was warranty, they utilized an OEM water pump. The expense of this warranty repair was $0.00 to me.

Now, utilizing your example of replacing the water pump as preventative maintenance along with a timing belt replacement (which is a good practice, I do the same as the timing belt R&R brought me within a few fasteners of replacing the water pump). I don't know of any manufacturer that is presently offering a lifetime power train warranty and would conclude most would expire at 100K miles. So impacting the warranty coverage with an aftermarket timing belt or water pump, at a 100K mile preventative maintenance, becomes a moot issue.

For the sake of our discussion of aftermarket components impacting warranty coverage, for the most part, we're down to maintenance supplies, such as filters and fluids. My point is for the price differential on these items, it is simply not worth the risk or the hassle of having to argue your case of whether an aftermarket component was the root cause or contributed to a failure being contested by the manufacture. While I can't state knowledge of any manufacturer utilizing a poor quality oil filter, regardless if that is the case, if you utilize their filter it becomes a non-issue in the warranty repair.

As another example, I had set of four Goodyear tires that wore out before the tread life guarantee had expired. The Goodyear dealer denied to even process the claim as I couldn't produce receipts documenting that the tires had been rotated at the recommended intervals, because I do my tire rotations myself at the time of oil changes. It would have been a prorate adjustment and the miles that were on the tires verses the treadlife guarantee didn't amount to enough to put forth the effort to contest it. I just purchased my tires elsewhere. For the dollars involved, if I had been that dealer, I would have bit the bullet on the treadlife warranty to retain my business, as I had been a 20+ year customer and with the business vehicles....
 

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Sennister,

I agree with your conclusions with a few exceptions. Let's consider your water pump example, as coincidentally, I just had one fail last month. It failed at 61,000 miles, which was beyond the 3yr-36,000 mile basic warranty. However, as this vehicle had a 6yr 100,000 power train warranty, which includes water pumps, it was covered by that warranty. As it was warranty, they utilized an OEM water pump. The expense of this warranty repair was $0.00 to me.

Now, utilizing your example of replacing the water pump as preventative maintenance along with a timing belt replacement (which is a good practice, I do the same as the timing belt R&R brought me within a few fasteners of replacing the water pump). I don't know of any manufacturer that is presently offering a lifetime power train warranty and would conclude most would expire at 100K miles. So impacting the warranty coverage with an aftermarket timing belt or water pump, at a 100K mile preventative maintenance, becomes a moot issue.

For the sake of our discussion of aftermarket components impacting warranty coverage, for the most part, we're down to maintenance supplies, such as filters and fluids. My point is for the price differential on these items, it is simply not worth the risk or the hassle of having to argue your case of whether an aftermarket component was the root cause or contributed to a failure being contested by the manufacture. While I can't state knowledge of any manufacturer utilizing a poor quality oil filter, regardless if that is the case, if you utilize their filter it becomes a non-issue in the warranty repair.

As another example, I had set of four Goodyear tires that wore out before the tread life guarantee had expired. The Goodyear dealer denied to even process the claim as I couldn't produce receipts documenting that the tires had been rotated at the recommended intervals, because I do my tire rotations myself at the time of oil changes. It would have been a prorate adjustment and the miles that were on the tires verses the treadlife guarantee didn't amount to enough to put forth the effort to contest it. I just purchased my tires elsewhere. For the dollars involved, if I had been that dealer, I would have bit the bullet on the treadlife warranty to retain my business, as I had been a 20+ year customer and with the business vehicles....


The joys about social media is that you can out ****** dealers like that. Name and shame them, and let others know. Just avoid personal attacks, stick to the facts, and make sure you let others know to go elsewhere.
 

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Sennister,

I agree with your conclusions with a few exceptions. Let's consider your water pump example, as coincidentally, I just had one fail last month. It failed at 61,000 miles, which was beyond the 3yr-36,000 mile basic warranty. However, as this vehicle had a 6yr 100,000 power train warranty, which includes water pumps, it was covered by that warranty. As it was warranty, they utilized an OEM water pump. The expense of this warranty repair was $0.00 to me.

Now, utilizing your example of replacing the water pump as preventative maintenance along with a timing belt replacement (which is a good practice, I do the same as the timing belt R&R brought me within a few fasteners of replacing the water pump). I don't know of any manufacturer that is presently offering a lifetime power train warranty and would conclude most would expire at 100K miles. So impacting the warranty coverage with an aftermarket timing belt or water pump, at a 100K mile preventative maintenance, becomes a moot issue.

For the sake of our discussion of aftermarket components impacting warranty coverage, for the most part, we're down to maintenance supplies, such as filters and fluids. My point is for the price differential on these items, it is simply not worth the risk or the hassle of having to argue your case of whether an aftermarket component was the root cause or contributed to a failure being contested by the manufacture. While I can't state knowledge of any manufacturer utilizing a poor quality oil filter, regardless if that is the case, if you utilize their filter it becomes a non-issue in the warranty repair.

As another example, I had set of four Goodyear tires that wore out before the tread life guarantee had expired. The Goodyear dealer denied to even process the claim as I couldn't produce receipts documenting that the tires had been rotated at the recommended intervals, because I do my tire rotations myself at the time of oil changes. It would have been a prorate adjustment and the miles that were on the tires verses the treadlife guarantee didn't amount to enough to put forth the effort to contest it. I just purchased my tires elsewhere. For the dollars involved, if I had been that dealer, I would have bit the bullet on the treadlife warranty to retain my business, as I had been a 20+ year customer and with the business vehicles....
Since you are in MN and probably know about Walser. I will use them as an example. There are other dealers offering similar programs. Million Mile Warranties and such that I hear on the radio all the time. Most are about the same but here is Walser. Again, not manufacturer but a warranty none the less. I do find it interesting that they call it a warranty and not an insurance policy which might be a better wording for these.

https://www.walser.com/warranty-for-life.htm

In the list of items covered.

Engine:
Cylinder block, cylinder head(s), rotor housings and their internal parts, intake manifold, exhaust manifold(s), timing gears, timing chain(s) or belt(s), timing chain or belt tensioner(s) and timing chain or belt cover, valve cover(s), flywheel or flexplate, ring gear, harmonic balancer, oil pump, vacuum pump, water pump, oil pan, turbocharger or supercharger housing(s) and their internal parts, waste gate, intercooler, engine mounts, and EGR valve.
I get that this is a dealer "warranty" and not a manufacturer but as you probably know Walser sells a lot of different makes of vehicles. They offer it on all of them, even used as far as I know as long as it meets the requirements of less than 60K miles and the age limit. Never bought a vehicle from them personally or any dealer with a similar warranty so I have never tested how this works and can't speak to the exact process. Sometimes these extended warranties require that routine maint be performed by the dealer. Not sure if that is the case with Walser. I kind of wonder if this entire FTC notice is partly because of these "warranties". I mentioned that in my first response in this thread.

I did however mention in my previous post pretty much your exact example. A vehicle with 100K miles needing a timing belt. Lets say you don't have a Walser warranty so you just replaced the timing belt, water pump and other parts as needed at 100K miles on the odometer as it would probably not be covered by Walser anyhow since those items are technically spelled out in the routine maint schedule. 5K miles later, so 105K on the odometer, the pump fails. Again not having the Walser warranty, you wouldn't go to the dealer anyhow because as you pointed out, powertrain warranties are a lot of times capped at 100K but you could go back to the water pump manufacturer because sometimes they have warranties on the part. It did die at 5K miles. They may not cover labor but at least you could get a new water pump and save $60-200. But what if you did have an extended warranty through someone like Walser. Well now it is a grey area and you would likely have to look at fine print. If Walser did the replacement on your dime for a routine maint then you might be covered with the failure at 105K, but if you originally replaced it on your own because it is routine maintenance (though outside the comfort zone for most), you might not be covered. If I was in a warranty like this I would look closely at the terms. Maybe water pump on your vehicle isn't specifically listed as a wear item to be replaced with the timing belt. In that case run it till it dies. You may be better off not doing it with the timing belt if you would rather not have the expense. Hard to say personally I would probably replace it because of peace of mind and not having to worry about getting stranded.

If the water pump failed at 40K miles on the odometer and you replaced it with a aftermarket, not sure why you would do that. Short of maybe you are in the back woods of Alaska and it would cost more to tow the vehicle to the dealer to have it fixed under warranty, it isn't derivable so maybe you just change it on the side of the road or at a local auto shop with what you can get since it is cheaper than the tow bill. Then it fails 10K miles later (bad luck I guess) but this time you are back home and technically still under warranty, should they deny the claim? Yeah kind of a stretch but crazy stuff happens and that is a tough call. While one could argue that it was the aftermarket part that failed not OEM. However the OEM one failed originally or the aftermarket one wouldn't be there which is an interesting argument. It isn't like you just got bored and decided to start changing out water pumps for no reason. You just chose to replace it yourself because of convenience over trying to tow the vehicle to the dealer. A good dealer (like in your tire example) might just cover it to save a good customer. However what if the part requires a core return. Hmm that just got a little more difficult. There are a million of different scenarios that one could play out though hypothetically.

As far as routine maint items like filters and fluids. You are likely going to run into a wide range of thoughts on this. I find in many forums (others besides here) that people get very passionate about these things for some reason. Looking at my Subaru WRX, I actually have been using OEM filters and the oil I run meets the specs in the manual. Is it the same brand as the oil they put in at the dealer? No idea as I don't know what they use and I do the oil changes myself. It is too far to go to the dealer and sit around waiting on them. If due, I put the car on the lift when I get home from work so it is heated up, pull the filter, raise the car and open the valve to drain the oil. Come back after changing out of "Office Clothing" and into "Real Work Clothing", maybe after dinner by this point. Close the valve, lower the car, screw on a new filter and dump in the new oil. It takes maybe 10 minutes of actual doing stuff time. I did have an oh crap moment the last oil change when I realized after pulling the filter and draining the oil that I didn't have any new oil left. :nunu: I just had to hop in a different vehicle and run to the store before they closed. For others that may live in an apartment and would be doing this in a parking lot or driveway on a -20 day it might not be so easy. Many of these oil change places or even the dealers now are getting so cheap with the price that I can't buy the supplies for what they charge. It is tempting.

Some people count pennies and saving $10 on a filter might be a lot. Personally it isn't even something I look at, I value time more so I buy the filters by the case from the dealer. I understand the convenience of being able to swing by a Walmart or auto store and pick up a filter. I just don't care for Fram filters which seem to be the most common brand readily available but I want to avoid that discussion. That said, how this interpretation of the Magnuson-Moss Act is defined was more my point. The fact remains that aftermarket can mean a lot of things. Like what you and others have stated it can be better than OEM specs and it can be worse. That can be a gamble unless you do homework and lets be honest, most people don't do that. There are different reasons to use aftermarket compared to OEM. Sometimes it is a cost savings, sometimes a convenience and sometimes a better product. Like what you mentioned and I totally agree with, if you are at a point where you are putting aftermarket parts on, odds are you probably don't have a warranty unless it is a routine wear or replace item like a brake pad or filter that wouldn't be covered. If not the case, why would you be doing the work? You would probably be at the dealer and they would be using OEM parts. But if the FTC doesn't specifically state that this cannot be a disqualifying standard, then you start to walk a fine line of giving them an easy out of coverage because you put some aftermarket part on and we are going to deny the warranty because of that. Even though it most likely had nothing to do with it. I understand your thought process of the cost difference not being great enough and avoid the burden of proof that it was the issue. But that is where I disagree. The burden of proof should fall on them and not you. If they present the filter to me saying this is where it split down the welded seam because of poor manufacturing process of the cheap aftermarket filter that I chose to use. Well that is pretty cut and dry, yes the poor quality of the $5 part was directly related to running the engine dry on oil. If they try and claim that brand ______ filter doesn't have the same micron filtration as the OEM and that is why your crankshaft bearing failed, even though the vehicle only has 20K miles on it. Hmm, that is going to be a harder fight and it is up to them to prove. They would have to determine the filtration media between the two filters and how that difference caused enough contamination to then prematurely wear the bearings on the crankshaft. This may or may not be easy. Yes, you may have avoided it by using OEM but it is still on them, not you to prove but I also don't think this is very common of a failure. Not at that mileage.

In looking at the Wikipedia post for the Magnuson-Moss Act the section that covers burden of proof would probably fall under this.

The federal minimum standards for full warranties are waived if the warrantor can show that the problem associated with a warranted consumer product was caused by damage while in the possession of the consumer, or by unreasonable use, including a failure to provide reasonable and necessary maintenance.
As stated the warrantor has to show that the problem is associated with users failure to provide reasonable and necessary maintenance. So I interpret that as it isn't up to you to prove that your failure to provide reasonable and necessary maintenance was the cause, it is up to them. Lets take this a little further and forget the filter discussion to explain my point of view a little better. Lets say you have 59K miles on the odometer and have never done an oil change and there is now and engine issue. I picked 59K miles because 60K powertrain warranties are pretty common but some are 100K as you mentioned. They pull the valve covers and I would bet it is pretty easy to tell what is going on here. That is how they could prove that reasonable and necessary maintenance hasn't been done. Heck it might even fall under the unreasonable use. More so with all these oil change reminders in modern cars. It is a little harder if you have been doing oil changes. Maybe they collected a sample of oil and sent it in for analysis. That could be used as proof that maybe the oil you have been using didn't meet the specifications found in the owners manual. I would argue that cases like this are far more common than the oil filter debate. I personally know people that think the oil light on the dash just means they need to add another quart. Oil change, whats that??? :banghead: I also know people who have been through battles with dealers where they have had to prove the failure through the use of oil analysis. It is probably more common than you think when a vehicle comes in with a catastrophic engine issue that they keep a sample of that oil just in case as they start tearing into things.

The other thing that the Magnuson-Moss Act also applies to in terms of modifications which actually helps the dealers/manufacturers is with troubleshooting. I don't recall the exact wording but the effect is that if you modified the vehicle you may have to return it to stock condition before they will do warranty work. I am trying to think of an example. Lets say you are saying you have a brake issue. Maybe brake lights don't work. You have a vehicle that wasn't prepped for a brake controller so you had to splice into the wiring harness to add it. Well they can make you remove it before they troubleshoot the issue. Who knows how you wired it in and their diagnostic processes and results might be altered by the fact that you spliced into the harness to add the controller. It may turn out to be a brake light switch that is the problem but they don't know how to diagnose it because they don't know what you did to it. How this protects the dealers is in a warranty claim the techs are typically paid and the dealer paid by the manufacturer based on book hours. If you are diagnosing a brake light issue the book may say that will take 10 minutes of shop time to diagnose and 5 minutes to replace the switch. So the dealer is credited from the manufacturer for the shop time of 15 minutes plus the part. But what if the owner hacked in that brake controller so it took the tech an hour to figure out what the heck is going on plus the 15 minutes to diagnose and replace. Who should be responsible for that extra hour of shop time?
 
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