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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Thought I'd start this to try and contain any talk of home built PTO driven high flow, high pressure, hydraulic power packs.

To answer Steve's comment:

Jer, lots of pumps are designed to operate in the 2000 to 2500 rpm range. Have you considered building something around a mid pto? Seems this would allow you to increase your selection of pumps. I would think a Commercial Shearing P50 pump would be the ticket for your application. At 2000 rpm it should yield about 40 gals/minute.

The Mid PTO certainly spins faster (2100rpm), but two things worry me. First, at 2100rpm if the same engine and driveline are powering the mid PTO, it'll have to have less torque than the rear, no? Second, I'm concerned about putting important (and expensive) pumps, lines, etc on the underbelly of the tractor for exposure reasons.

I chatted with the guys at the shop today as well, and if I can't find a PTO pump that will suit my needs, there are lots of adapters available to go from standard hydraulic motor shafts to PTO - male or female. The Cross 540 pumps look good though....

-Jer.
 

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If this works out, I am going to clone your design. I would love to have a fel blower!
 

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Definetly interested as well...I know I started research in doing something similar when I built my power rake...I've got a few pet projects that would benefit from this as well.
Like Steve mentioned, when I briefly looked into it, I was thinkin about Mid-PTO as well...reason being I could build a dedicated pump setup of some sort and leave it installed permanently...In a perfect world, I'd also find a place to hide the tank in/on/under the tractor...or even use the existing sump as an oil source...
 

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IMHO, although the Mid-PTO sounds like it make sence-it really does not in the long run.

This setup would require it's own dedicated tank equal to the pumps output, a filter, and a PRV. It also would need LARGE hoses due to the pump volume. A rear setup that hangs on the 3PH is the only viable solution to all this. Then you will need LARGE hoses running to the loader and a LARGE valve to control the implement.

Michigan Iron also makes a "power pack" like JD, but little info is online about it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Schulte makes one too, comes in at around 6500$!!! I can't imagine there anywhere near that to produce, but when JD sets the standard at 6 or 7K, I guess you can charge like that for a comparable unit.

As far as I can tell, the hoses needed for Prince Pump kinda flow and pressure (21GPM, 2200psi) would be around 3/4", and 7/8" if I used the Cross pump at 32 GPM and 3000 psi. Any thoughts on rubber hose vs metal. I know metal is theoretically better, but in reality, does it matter?

Good to throw ideas around on this with all of you....it'll sure help when the time comes.....

-Jer.
 

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Any thoughts on rubber hose vs metal. I know metal is theoretically better, but in reality, does it matter?
You are correct, in the end the work will still get done. The real question to ask on this subject is how permenent do you want the set up to be?
 

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Rubber is more realistic since this type of system will not be permanantly mounted. I envision the tank, pump and filter mounted to a frame hanging on the 3PH, hooked to the PTO with a standard shaft. Then from this frame, the large hoses hanging from homemade brackets along the fender and loader frame to the implement. A motor valve could be used to turn the implement ON/OFF, or just the PTO switch.
 

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Kenny,
Would an modified empty JD ballast box hold enough fluid for this application? Its sturdy enough that you might even be able to mount a pump to it?
 

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Kenny,
Would an modified empty JD ballast box hold enough fluid for this application? Its sturdy enough that you might even be able to mount a pump to it?
Good question...I'd have to go measure it and figure the volume but I'd have to "guess" yes, but I do see a problem mounting the pump since it would be so high the angle of the PTO shaft may be to extreme. Plus you have to weld all the seems, add a baffle and bungs, close the top...it may be to much work considering what they cost.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Brian - Pre-made reservoirs are pretty cheap - actually probably cost less than a BB does!!

My vision for this is a reservoir with the vent, plug, temp gauge, etc to be 'portable' in that I would be able to lift it up and place it on either my rear blade, my aer-way, or anywhere that I've fabbed up a secure, 'strap-downable' mount for it. I know it'll be heavy, maybe I'll add a lifting hook to it so I can pallet fork the reservoir onto the blade/aerway prior to connecting it up.

I see the pump simply 'hanging' off the PTO like a roller pump for a sprayer pump with a torque bar to stop it from rotating. This would eliminate the need for a PTO shaft, and in turn the worries of PTO shaft angle, etc.

I'd like to imagine having permanent hard lines with QD's from the back of the tractor to the loader arms (likely the left sided arm, the right's getting kinda full) where there'll transition to rubber lines (likely via QD's) and run on the FEL arm up to the front of the FEL where they'll connect to the motor. I'd like to set up the motor with a 6 spline female PTO coupler so I'd be able to power a snowblower, or a broom, or my flail, or whatever I can come up with.

I agree with the motor spool valve comment. I'd want the system to be reversible - so the valve and motor would have to allow that. I see the EH motor spool valve living on the hard lines somewhere, and it being controlled by yet another switch (ON/OFF/ON, with indicator LED's) on the fender of my machine.

Can someone please tell me the difference between "return line" and "suction line"??

-Jer.
 

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I see the pump simply 'hanging' off the PTO like a roller pump for a sprayer pump with a torque bar to stop it from rotating. This would eliminate the need for a PTO shaft, and in turn the worries of PTO shaft angle, etc.

Can someone please tell me the difference between "return line" and "suction line"??

-Jer.

Jer, there is a big difference between hanging a roller pump on the pto and hanging a large heavy hydraulic pump with lots of torque. I think you would find the stiff cumbersome hoses to be problematic. If you are putting this on the rear I would build up a complete powerpack with the pto shaft.

About the torque issue with the 2100 rpm, you need to choose the correct width gear set to match the pto power available. One advantage to utilizing a higher speed pump is it would be much smaller for a given flowrate than one turning at 540.


The difference between a suction line and a return line, the suction line should use the lower pickup point in the tank eliminating air entrainment and cooler fluid to supply the pump inlet. The return line with fluid after passing through the valves and cylinder/motor loops should pass through a cooler (optional) then return to the top of the tank. Using the return line to recycle the fluid to the pump without returning to the tank can cause problems with overheating and cavitation, all bad. The tank should be vented to allow any air to escape.
 

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Brian - Pre-made reservoirs are pretty cheap - actually probably cost less than a BB does!!

My vision for this is a reservoir with the vent, plug, temp gauge, etc to be 'portable' in that I would be able to lift it up and place it on either my rear blade, my aer-way, or anywhere that I've fabbed up a secure, 'strap-downable' mount for it. I know it'll be heavy, maybe I'll add a lifting hook to it so I can pallet fork the reservoir onto the blade/aerway prior to connecting it up.

I see the pump simply 'hanging' off the PTO like a roller pump for a sprayer pump with a torque bar to stop it from rotating. This would eliminate the need for a PTO shaft, and in turn the worries of PTO shaft angle, etc.

I'd like to imagine having permanent hard lines with QD's from the back of the tractor to the loader arms (likely the left sided arm, the right's getting kinda full) where there'll transition to rubber lines (likely via QD's) and run on the FEL arm up to the front of the FEL where they'll connect to the motor. I'd like to set up the motor with a 6 spline female PTO coupler so I'd be able to power a snowblower, or a broom, or my flail, or whatever I can come up with.

I agree with the motor spool valve comment. I'd want the system to be reversible - so the valve and motor would have to allow that. I see the EH motor spool valve living on the hard lines somewhere, and it being controlled by yet another switch (ON/OFF/ON, with indicator LED's) on the fender of my machine.

Can someone please tell me the difference between "return line" and "suction line"??

-Jer.
All good point Jer.:thumbup1gif:

"Return" is from a valve, cylinder or motor back to the tank/sump.
"Suction" is from the tank/sump into the pump.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Steve,

Thanks for the clarification on the suction/return bit - now it makes sense. Definitely see the point of the return oil having to stop in the tank before it makes its next run.

I think you're misunderstanding my plan on the hard lines. This is how I see the flow going:

Tank - rubber suction line - PTO pump - rubber pressure line - QD - hard line - EH motor spool valve - hard line to right loader mast - QD - rubber pressure line up loader arms - QD - implement rubber line - motor with female 6 spline 540 PTO connection - rubber return line - QD - hard return line to back of tractor - QD - rubber return line to top of tank.

I could go rubber all the way to the front and back, but I imagine them being run on the belly of the machine, and I think the hardlines would be more robust against stump, rocks, etc (maybe I'm dreaming here, 1" rubber line is pretty tough stuff). Cosmetics aren't really an issue on the underbelly of the machine. Is flow restricted all that much in rubber vs metal?? Since there is rubber in the circuit, is that the rate limiting step, making the hardlines moot in terms of flow??

I will need some extra rubber line at the front of the loader sometimes to 'push' my flail mower around, as the male PTO stem of the mower will be facing forward in order to make the rear roller work well. Blower will be OK as is.

My thought is that by disconnecting the QD's from the back of the tractor, the tank and pump can be lifted off the blade, and put on whatever else I need to, with some mechanical lifting muscle, of course (my guess is 500lbs full of 25gal of oil).

Where would the best spot for the pressure relief valve be in that circuit??

-Jer.
 

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Jer,
For a mock up I wouldn't bother with the metal lines, while the metal lines are good they are difficult to form for novices. About abrasion on the underside of the tractor, I really don't see most of us operating under conditions where we scrape the bottom of the tractor against anything that would effect hydraulic hose. If you do then consider a skid plate to protect everything.

The relief valve should be integral to the spool valve (my first choice) or adjacent with the relief line returning to the tank. It needs to be on the high pressure side so that a closed spool which blocks the return of oil will allow the pump to build pressure to the relief setting and bypass the oil back to the tank.
In your special application where you are putting a quick disconnect on the pump outlet I would say that the relief should be on the pump outlet before the hose and quick disconnect. If someone (probably yourself:laugh:) forgot to connect the quickcoupler and turned on the pump by mistake it would still go into relief saving you some grief.

If it were me and I was planning to use the electric operated valves I would build the entire powerpack with valves, pump, tank, quick couplers and quick hitch as one unit. Add an electrical connector for the remote valve controls. I would then run the hoses forward beneath the tractor to the fel or where convenient. This would allow for an easy changeover to your next tractor.

Depending on the system flow, system pressure and size of the reservoir you may need an oil cooler. I would at least have a game plan in case the need arises. This should be on the return line before the tank.

I am curious about what you intend to do with this much hydraulic power on a 4720 (?) as this sounds like more of an application for a skidsteer or 210 LE or LJ landscape loader. I would expect running a larger flail mower will drop your engine rpms and travel speed dramatically. We will see though, definately a fun project.

What kind of flow and pressure are you trying to achieve? Seems I read about 30 gals a minute? How many horse power do you need for the flail and snowblower? You recognize that the tractor pto horsepower rating is achieved while the tractor is stationary, so you need to limit the pto power use enough to operate the tractor too. I wouldn't plan on getting more than 25hp maximum delivered to the front of the tractor, thats just my guess.

My experience in building power packs has been with much larger units for oil field use years ago. The smallest I ever built used a Detroit 8V71 with Funk planetary gear driving three gear pumps. No experience to speak of with the consumer size stuff but it should have similar issues.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
For a mock up I wouldn't bother with the metal lines, while the metal lines are good they are difficult to form for novices. About abrasion on the underside of the tractor, I really don't see most of us operating under conditions where we scrape the bottom of the tractor against anything that would effect hydraulic hose. If you do then consider a skid plate to protect everything.
Ya, you're right. I'm not logging!!! I would get the hydro shop to bend them for me, but even so, why pay the extra.

The relief valve should be integral to the spool valve (my first choice) or adjacent with the relief line returning to the tank. It needs to be on the high pressure side so that a closed spool which blocks the return of oil will allow the pump to build pressure to the relief setting and bypass the oil back to the tank.
In your special application where you are putting a quick disconnect on the pump outlet I would say that the relief should be on the pump outlet before the hose and quick disconnect. If someone (probably yourself:laugh:) forgot to connect the quickcoupler and turned on the pump by mistake it would still go into relief saving you some grief.
Very good point. This'll make for a nice short return line from the PRV to the tank as well - easy plumbing. The filter should live on the return line, just before the return oil drops into the tank, correct??

If it were me and I was planning to use the electric operated valves I would build the entire powerpack with valves, pump, tank, quick couplers and quick hitch as one unit. Add an electrical connector for the remote valve controls. I would then run the hoses forward beneath the tractor to the fel or where convenient. This would allow for an easy changeover to your next tractor.
Again, good point. That way all it'd be to change is adding a switch to the new tractor..... the new cab tractor.....:grin:

Depending on the system flow, system pressure and size of the reservoir you may need an oil cooler. I would at least have a game plan in case the need arises. This should be on the return line before the tank.
Do you think I'll need a cooler even if I follow, or even exceed a bit on the safe side, the 1 GPM:1 Gallon of Reservoir rule?? It's hardest work will likely be in the dead of winter with the snow blower, so Old Man Frosty will help with cooling.

I am curious about what you intend to do with this much hydraulic power on a 4720 (?) as this sounds like more of an application for a skidsteer or 210 LE or LJ landscape loader. I would expect running a larger flail mower will drop your engine rpms and travel speed dramatically. We will see though, definately a fun project.
The original impetus was/is a loader mounted snowblower. The flail mower on the front is a "hmmmm, what else can be done here" kinda thing. My blower is a Schulte 76", and my Flail is a 73" 1900. I think both of those will run fine with the flow from either that big Cross pump at 33GPM @ 3000psi (~52hp), or the biggest 540rpm Prince at 21GPM @ 2200psi (~32hp). I thought the Cross would just add some leeway in the system - isn't bigger always better?? :nunu:

No matter what, I'll be (actually already am) consulting with the guys at Provincial Hydraulics for the planning, just to make sure that everything adds up.

What kind of flow and pressure are you trying to achieve? Seems I read about 30 gals a minute? How many horse power do you need for the flail and snowblower? You recognize that the tractor pto horsepower rating is achieved while the tractor is stationary, so you need to limit the pto power use enough to operate the tractor too. I wouldn't plan on getting more than 25hp maximum delivered to the front of the tractor, thats just my guess.
I suppose as much flow as possible. I think I read a rule of thumb of 5hp per foot of blower somewhere on TBN - so about 32-33HP for the blower. I don't have a rule for the flails, but I do know that my 4720 carts it around and spins it like it's not even there. From what I understand hydraulics are like electricity in that the system is only maxed out when a maximum load is applied - so by that thinking as long as I don't put a 120" blower out front and blow 4' drifts with it, I'll always be drawing less than the 50 PTO HP that my tractor, and proposed power pack, is supposed to be able to produce.... i think?? Am I right???

I don't have a clue how Engine vs PTO vs stationary HP ratings actually play out in reality..... I'd sure like to know though. If the PTO HP is maxed out, does that mean there's no power left in the engine to move that tractor, or move the on board hydraulics?? I dunno....?? :unknown:

My experience in building power packs has been with much larger units for oil field use years ago. The smallest I ever built used a Detroit 8V71 with Funk planetary gear driving three gear pumps. No experience to speak of with the consumer size stuff but it should have similar issues.
Ya, I agree. Theory should be the same, whether it's got 50hp behind it, or 3500hp. That's big stuff you were building!!! Isn't the patch great for 'playing'?? It's like shop class with an almost unlimited budget..... there's a lot of days I wish I had done Engineering, like I originally planned. i think you guys can tell, based on how much I'm on here, that this is were my mind is at for most of the day!!!

-Jer.
 

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Jer,
Do you have a link for the two pumps you mentioned? I want to look at the specs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Yessir, here they are:

From Cross I was looking at the 50T052, and the HC-P-11C from Prince.

I asked today when I picked up my tractor, there are 1" QD's, but not 7/8", so 1" it'll be......

-Jer.
 

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Jer,
Of the two you listed I would prefer the design of the Prince pump. I still would prefer a high quality pump as mentioned before with the tank mounted slightly above the pump. This would help with the issues of suction line size and eliminate the need for the suction quick disconnects too.

Doesn't mean you have to give up the rear blade though, just need to design the hyd pack and rearblade as one unit.
 
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