Hydraulic Connections

2200 Views 20 Replies 6 Participants Last post by Alaviers, Sep 22, 2021

Alaviers

Discussion Starter · Sep 19, 2021

Hello, I finally discovered what the problem with my tractor is, the nomenclature is screwing me up though.

I have a mechanical pump attached to the side of the engine. On that pump I have two manifolds (that's what I'm calling them) that feed hydraulic fluid to the power steering and to the bucket loader. The manifold that controls the power steering is not the culprit.

The manifold that delivers hydraulic fluid to the loader is. I pulled off the old one, had a blown seal which was the cause of sending hydraulic fluid into the engine block. I have ordered and replaced the faulty manifold.

The new manifold, just like the old one, has three points where lines are fed to the manifold. Flat metal blocks with an o-ring connected to the hydraulic hose. I've affixed all of these. The problem I have now is one of them keeps blowing out. I've replaced the o-ring, I've utilized new bolts as the old ones were just a little to short. I've torqued them down... but I keep blowing out hydraulic fluid.

This morning I thought I had it figured out. I got the tractor started, pulled out of the location where it has been for the last nine months, and put it where I wanted it. Then I started manipulating the bucket loader to remove some of the air that must be in those lines. When I was turning the bucket down, the damned thing blue a mixture of air and fluid out of that one connection. Shut the machine down and buried my head in my arms and almost cried.

I just don't know what to do next. The mechanics around here won't touch it because its not a john deere or a mihendre... I can't seem to find a mechanic worth his salt willing to work on this thing and at best I'm a junior shade tree mechanic.

Help

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flyweight

· #2 · Sep 19, 2021 (Edited)

Can you post a photo of the area where the O-ring is located?

You might want to try installing a Packing(square ring) or a Quad-Ring(X-Ring) in it's place.

In some applications, I've used a Quad Ring in place of a O-rings and am very satisfied.
These are normally found at a Reputable Hydraulics Repair/Supply Shop.

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Alaviers

Discussion Starter · #3 · Sep 19, 2021

Yes, definitely installing an o-ring. I tried a thinner one first, but when that blew I went to a nice little girthy o-ring. But its cylindrical opposed to square or the x you're showing above. There is a reputable (I hope) hydraulics shop right around the corner, but will need to wait till tomorrow to get in there.

Do I need to bleed the air out of the lines or does that happen as a byproduct of using the loader?

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rwmeyer

· #4 · Sep 19, 2021

No need to bleed the air out, they'll bleed themselves! Raise/lower loader arms 3ish times and this will bleed loader arm cylinders. Repeat with bucket, curl/dump. When you do this, don't go full stroke on the control levers. Just "tickle them" to slowly move cylinders.

You mentioned "I've torqued them down." Is this with a torque wrench to a value found for the fittings/o-rings/bolts or just pulled the he!! on a wrench? Overtightening an o-ring will usually result in a failure! Also, use the correct o-ring from either a dealer or a specification sheet and if just from a spec sheet, make SURE of material! The wrong material and an o-ring will turn to "mush" shortly and will not seal!

As Michael mentioned, a pic will be helpful, especially of the manifold where the o-ring fits. Bob

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Alaviers

Discussion Starter · #5 · Sep 19, 2021

Okay, I will snap a few pics here in an hour. I've been using a Ryobi impact driver, and I've been torquing them to that lbs. I can not find ANY maintenance manuals on this tractor and the local guys won't look at it so I'm just trying to figure this out on my own. The body of the manifold seems to be aluminum so I'm trying really hard not to strip it out.

Point of interest.... I haven't been "tickling" the bucket. I crank it up hard on the joystick, and down, and then started manipulating the angle of the bucket itself. This probably isn't helping my cause. This last time when it blew, I noted there was much air as well as fluid being expelled. Could it be that I'm trying too hard to push that air out?

Pics coming soon.

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rwmeyer

· #6 · Sep 19, 2021 (Edited)

I can't comment til I see pics, but not fond on hammering with an impact wrench! Measure bolts...diameter, threads per inch AND grade... and post here. Also electric or pneumatic impact and what size, 3/8", 1/2"?
"tickling"... properly called feathering... would be better. When air is in the system, cylinders will often jump, instead of moving slowly, and sometimes move with a "bang". This can put undue stress on system components. Once air is out, no problem going full bore! Bob

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Alaviers

Discussion Starter · #7 · Sep 19, 2021

Roger, Ryobi battery impact wrench 3/8 driver. Pics forthcoming.

rwmeyer

· #8 · Sep 19, 2021

Hmm, The info I found on that is it's rated for 150 ft-lbs of torque. That's a correct torque for a 5/8" bolt which I doubt is what you have on your manifold! No rush, But I'll wait for pics...and bolt specs! Bob

Alaviers

Discussion Starter · #9 · Sep 19, 2021

Okay, here are some images of the offensive device. The second picture with my finger in it shows the approximate area in which the fluid is coming out.
The bolts I'm using are M8-1.25x50mm class 10.9

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rwmeyer

· #10 · Sep 19, 2021

Hmm, VERY strange area to leak! I'm assuming The leak is between the round manifold, which appears to be iron or steel, and the silver housing which, as you said, appears to be aluminum. I'm also gong to assume that the o-ring fits inside a circle/counterbore in either the aluminum or iron housing.

If my assumptions are correct, it shouldn't leak... which is what your thinking! So, inspect the 2 mating surfaces for any bumps or lumps and maybe even stone with a flat stone. It's possible that threads in aluminum have pulled up and are keeping the 2 parts apart. Next, get a .0015" feeler, hold iron to steel, and check joint. The feeler should NOT enter the joint. Next, get a .010" feeler, put o-ring in counterbore and gently hold the 2 parts together, and check joint with feeler. Feeler may be able to go in... this is good! You may also want to check "gap" with other feelers. A typical o-ring has .010"-.020" compression. After tightening, joint should be "feeler tight"... .0015 feeler should not go in joint. Other than that, I've no idea!

If any questions/confusion, just ask and I'll try to clarify. Bob

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Alaviers

Discussion Starter · #11 · Sep 19, 2021

A lot of technical directions, but I can follow that. I'm heading to the local hydraulic place tomorrow morning for a square or x type o ring. I'm hoping that fixes the problem, but I will be sure to get the feelers and do just as you suggest. I've taken off the hose itself and will present that to the folks at the hydraulic place so I can get the right size out of the gate.

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rwmeyer

· #12 · Sep 19, 2021

I think you'll have problems finding a square o-ring, but a quad rind should be easier and work better. Talk with hydraulics guy too as he may have some ideas/thoughts! Bob

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Kennyd

· #13 · Sep 19, 2021

Blowing out an o-ring repeatedly seems like there may be a blockage in the system?

Zebrafive

· #14 · Sep 20, 2021

Alaviers said:
Okay, here are some images of the offensive device. The second picture with my finger in it shows the approximate area in which the fluid is coming out.
The bolts I'm using are M8-1.25x50mm class 10.9

Torque spec for an M8 class 10.9 bolt dry (not lubed) is 30lb-ft.
I would put a straight edge across the mating surface in several directions and make sure it's flat. You may have over torqued the bolts and warped the mating surface of the manifold or pump outlet.

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Alaviers

Discussion Starter · #15 · Sep 20, 2021

I've done this before with tires and bending rotors. The manifold is aluminum so that's totally possible, although I hope its not the case, warping the manifold.

I've been blowing out the O-rings, but I'm hoping that's due to improper o-rings. I went to the hardware store and bought a comparable o-ring and its probably either too skinny or too soft to meet the demands of that location. I'm going to go get the right o-ring today. I've taken off the hose and will present it at the hydraulic supply place. If this doesn't work, I'm going to buy an new pump manifold and start over assuming that the problems I'm having are due to a warped manifold.

If I could go back and talk to younger allan I would advise to drop the coin into a down payment on a new rig over a used one. Lesson's learned.

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MarkEagleUSA

· #16 · Sep 20, 2021

Zebrafive said:
You may have over torqued the bolts and warped the mating surface of the manifold or pump outlet.

Those appear to be Phillips head bolts. Perhaps they're not tight enough?

Alaviers

Discussion Starter · #17 · Sep 20, 2021

Oh what a journey. Okay, so now I've torqued and applied a square type O-ring, and this time it blew out the o-ring. I'm so done.

I'm fixing to order a new manifold since I've stripped out many of the holes in this one, and perhaps had warped the aluminum block. New manifold, new bolts with hex heads, square o-ring, torqued to 30 lbs... what I really need is a mechanic, however these guys here don't seem to want to work on anything that they don't work on all the time. Problem is that I'm a poor shade tree mechanic, poor insomuch as I'm not rich in experience. This tractor is going to drive me to drink... if I wasn't already there. I've included the OEM MFR data plate as an image in case one of you have had, or have any, experience in something like this. I'm fairly certain that the solution is an easy one, if not hard to find.

Data plate is from the original manifold.

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Alaviers

Discussion Starter · #18 · Sep 20, 2021

MarkEagleUSA said:
Those appear to be Phillips head bolts. Perhaps they're not tight enough?

I torqued to Ryobi quarter inch impact driver, cordless, plenty tight, tight enough to strip out one of the holes.

Alaviers

Discussion Starter · #19 · Sep 21, 2021

Okay, so a buddy came over last night, we struggled a bit, but we were able to reorient the head attached to the manifold to capitalize on the one remaining hole that was not stripped out. We red necked it up by using a type of 90 minute liquid gasket to reinforce the flat/ square O-ring we got. This morning I started the tractor and waited a few minutes waiting for the spray of hydraulic fluid. nothing, I started "teasing" the loader up and down, and the manifold holds. I then shut the tractor down as I had to get back to work.

It looks like its holding, but I keep expecting it to pop. I suspect that when I put it under load it will pop.

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Zebrafive

· #20 · Sep 22, 2021

Loctite makes a product for fixing stripped bolt holes. Might be worth a try. I think you could do this with it assembled, one bolt hole at a time.

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