Green Tractor Talk banner

1 - 16 of 16 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
My 2011 x 300 had a factory recall for a cooling fan issue, this fall the engine was surging and I noticed the cooling fins were plugged . When I removed the cowling I noticed the cooling fan was free to turn on the crankshaft, it turns out the fan retainer was installed upside down and was not driving the fan therefore not blowing enough air to keep the debris from accumulating.
Green tractors told me that the chances of that were impossible because there mechanic does not make mistakes.
I am mad and I will not let this go untill all know that this is acceptable Green Tractors customer relations.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
468 Posts
I understand your frustration, and that certainly is an unusual "first" post on Green Tractor Talk. Assuming you are talking about Bader & Sons in Ontario? While it is unfortunate that this happened, mechanics do indeed make mistakes. For someone to say otherwise or believe otherwise is irresponsible. Did this repair end up costing you money? Time lost? Obvious frustration. And are you asking the dealer in question to make some type of reparations or amends to you? I don't completely understand the post other than to state that the dealer apparently made a mistake. Please provide some more information so we all understand.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,593 Posts
There is a Green Tractors of Canada. My guess he means this one. Yeah sounds like a raw deal. What was the damage done?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,067 Posts
Shug, :wgtt:

I hope you'll stick around, and this isn't just an angry post you're spreading around on tractor sites.

I see you're in Ontario, specifically what dealer did this happen with? What did they say after saying it was impossible? Have they had a chance to look at the machine since all this happened?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
5,101 Posts
There is a Green Tractors of Canada. My guess he means this one. Yeah sounds like a raw deal. What was the damage done?
Hope this OP hasn't muddled that with this site's name by thinking that the two are related.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,999 Posts
If there was no damage done, chalk it up to experience and do not go back to that dealer. If there was damage done, advise the dealer and if you cannot obtain satisfaction, it is time to bring out the big guns. Document it and get with your attorney. Sometimes, just a letter from your attorney gets the results you want without declaring WWIII..

Dave
 

·
Bonehead Club Lackey
Joined
·
10,265 Posts
In the mean time... :wgtt:



The other tractor forum.

Where we try to help people.
 

·
Bonehead Club Lackey
Joined
·
10,265 Posts
Well it's been since the 29th and still no reply from the OP. Wrote some stuff and thought better of it. Maybe he's still having a bad day. Hope he gets things worked out. :dunno:
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
2,707 Posts
He hasn't even been on the site since he posted this. Maybe just a troll from another site, or at least, another brand. From the tone of his confusing post, I think he's not too fond of green.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,433 Posts
Hope this OP hasn't muddled that with this site's name by thinking that the two are related.
Well it's been since the 29th and still no reply from the OP. Wrote some stuff and thought better of it. Maybe he's still having a bad day. Hope he gets things worked out. :dunno:
He hasn't even been on the site since he posted this. Maybe just a troll from another site, or at least, another brand. From the tone of his confusing post, I think he's not too fond of green.
i think what jimR said is probably what happened.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,263 Posts
I have been mad at them before when they broke stuff on my x585 and tried to deny it (over torqued oil pressure sensor and cracked part of the block). That however was the dealer's tech not John Deere. I chewed out the owner of the dealership and eventually they fixed what they broke but they lost me as a customer. Even though they are in the town where I live, they don't see any of my business. In talking with neighbors and friends, I tell them of the experience that I had and how I would avoid them. Many have gone on to buy from other dealers. It works out alright for me as there is a different dealer owned by someone else in the town were I work. I drive by it twice a day and it is actually more convenient for small things than the dealer in my home town as I can run there over lunch. The only draw back is if I had to bring the machine in for something it is a 27 mile each way drive vs 3 miles. This isn't the case for many people though so I know I am lucky in that case. Either it is too far of a trip to be convenient or the dealers near by are all owned by the same core company so it really doesn't matter in the end.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
8,800 Posts
I have been mad at them before when they broke stuff on my x585 and tried to deny it (over torqued oil pressure sensor and cracked part of the block). That however was the dealer's tech not John Deere. I chewed out the owner of the dealership and eventually they fixed what they broke but they lost me as a customer. Even though they are in the town where I live, they don't see any of my business. In talking with neighbors and friends, I tell them of the experience that I had and how I would avoid them. Many have gone on to buy from other dealers. It works out alright for me as there is a different dealer owned by someone else in the town were I work. I drive by it twice a day and it is actually more convenient for small things than the dealer in my home town as I can run there over lunch. The only draw back is if I had to bring the machine in for something it is a 27 mile each way drive vs 3 miles. This isn't the case for many people though so I know I am lucky in that case. Either it is too far of a trip to be convenient or the dealers near by are all owned by the same core company so it really doesn't matter in the end.
People make mistakes. The fact that the dealer appeared to remedy the problem (based upon your comments) is certainly a step in the right direction. Any business with employees will at one time or another have a problem occur which needs to be dealt with. How the problem is handled says a lot about the company and it's owners.

Sometimes, if the dealer made an attempt to resolve and issue and did in fact make it right, I would consider giving them another chance. As someone who has owned businesses and had many, many employees, the employees and even the management don't always respond to customers and handle issues as they should. We all have bad days. When products are involved which require factory backed dealerships, the options become slimmer since there are fewer dealers in many areas. I am a big believer in expecting the dealer who sold the product originally to perform the service work on it. After all, it is that dealer which made the profit on the original sale.

A 54 mile round trip verses a 6 mile round trip for service would be something I would definitely have to consider. Keep in mind my comments are based upon the information YOU posted, nothing more, nothing less.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,263 Posts
People make mistakes. The fact that the dealer appeared to remedy the problem (based upon your comments) is certainly a step in the right direction. Any business with employees will at one time or another have a problem occur which needs to be dealt with. How the problem is handled says a lot about the company and it's owners.

Sometimes, if the dealer made an attempt to resolve and issue and did in fact make it right, I would consider giving them another chance. As someone who has owned businesses and had many, many employees, the employees and even the management don't always respond to customers and handle issues as they should. We all have bad days. When products are involved which require factory backed dealerships, the options become slimmer since there are fewer dealers in many areas. I am a big believer in expecting the dealer who sold the product originally to perform the service work on it. After all, it is that dealer which made the profit on the original sale.

A 54 mile round trip verses a 6 mile round trip for service would be something I would definitely have to consider. Keep in mind my comments are based upon the information YOU posted, nothing more, nothing less.
What pissed me off was the fact that they (service department) covered it up and when caught denied it. The fact that here was teflon tape on the part that wasn't there before yet denied working on it until I had to chew out the owner. All they had to do was tell me they broke something when it happened. I wouldn't be pissed. That would be a case of mistakes happen and someone having a bad day. Breaking something and covering it up pisses me off and isn't a way to run a business. After the owner said they would fix it. They then tried to charge me for it when picking it up. The dealer doing the work in this case is the dealer that it was originally purchased from. After all of this they never fixed the issue it was brought in for. In fact a lot of work I questioned. Why was the thermostat replaced? It clearly isn't a thermostat issue. It is electrical. There is no way a tractor (or other water cooled machine) can show it is over heating (in fact past overheating) with the PTO running, then you cut the PTO off all while stationary still at WOT and in 2 seconds the temp gauge drops to normal operating range on a day that is 85F. It would take 10 seconds to use a IR temp gun to validate this by the way. It clearly is an electrical issue. The temp sensor swap is a part I would think was logical to test or swap but a thermostat? Then in fixing the issue with the block they screwed up the seal and I had to go back yet again. A few months later I blew an EFI fuse because they didn't properly secure the engine wiring harness. The harness was rubbing on one of the valve cover bolts. By now we were several months later in winter so I ripped the tractor apart to track down the problem and fixed that issue. In talking to other people in our area that have been to this place I have had others comment that they have questioned their work in the past.

As far as the 54 mile round trip. Not that big of a deal. That is my daily commute. I drive right by the other dealer on the way to work 5 days a week. It is about 4-5 miles from my office so not a big deal to run there over lunch or they are still open when I am going by there on the way home. SoI guess it probably isn't a 54 mile drive as if I were just going there you could shave off 8-10 miles. I doubt I would run down there on a Saturday though so if I am there is because I am working that day. When it comes to service. Unless it is a warranty issue, I service all my equipment. The only reason this went to the dealer in the first place is I was swamped at work. It was also middle of summer and I didn't want to have it tore apart for a month or more while I hash through the electrical system. If it was a 54 mile drive round trip in the opposite direction that I go normally that might be a different story. The other thing about the dealer near my house. They are a Yamaha (Generator, Motorcycle, Snowmobile, ATV) as well as Stihl and John Deere. When you walk in there they will have a 1 Series and several of the smaller Garden Tractor line. While I am sure they can get one, they don't carry commercial mowers. They also seem to prefer the Yamaha market. It seems like the John Deere stuff is just there to fill out the showroom as an afterthought. The dealer near my work however is only a John Deere and Stihl dealer. You look at the front of the dealer and is lined up with 1,2,3,4 series machines, commercial mowers, as well as a couple X Series. However their inventory is heavy on the bigger stuff. In working with the manager on my purchase he mentioned he recently put in his order for 180 ZTrak mowers for 2016. They are the dealer that all golf courses in the area run their sales through if they run John Deere stuff. This is their primary market along with lawn service companies and hobby farms. The more units a dealer sells, the better price they get from John Deere. This leaves more meat on the bone for them to deal. My cousin is a store manager at a JD dealer in southern MN and I got a quote from him on a new machine but he couldn't beat their price because of this. He doesn't sell Ztraks, he sells combines.

Bottom line is they have lost my trust. The last thing I am going to do is give them another sale. I get a bad day but this went beyond that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,228 Posts
From someone that deals with servicing large machines. Sounds like a couple dlck moves by that dealer. If you prefer to use the place closer to work, do it. You need to show your capable of fixing it right the first time. I have to take my Viper truck 70 miles round trip to get good service. If there is no traffic it's a 1/2 hour trip one way.
Bottom line is take it to someone you trust.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
8,800 Posts
Why was the thermostat replaced? It clearly isn't a thermostat issue. It is electrical. There is no way a tractor (or other water cooled machine) can show it is over heating (in fact past overheating) with the PTO running, then you cut the PTO off all while stationary still at WOT and in 2 seconds the temp gauge drops to normal operating range on a day that is 85F. It would take 10 seconds to use a IR temp gun to validate this by the way. It clearly is an electrical issue. The temp sensor swap is a part I would think was logical to test or swap but a thermostat?
Like I said in my last sentence, my comment was based upon the information in your first post on this issue, before all of the details you added in your reply. You don't need to justify your decisions to anyone. If you are happy with the new dealer and the drive for service, that is all that matters.

Unfortunately, there are many "parts switchers" out there instead of people who can actually diagnose and solve problems. And this issue happens in all fields, not just small engine repair. Sadly, despite all of the improved technology, it seems like this issue is getting worse instead of better. It is almost as if critical thinking and the ability to solve problems has been replaced by people simply "googling" everything in their lives.

Actually, the symptoms you describe in the comment above which I have put in bold print could be many issues, including a bad thermostat. I have personally seen a wide range of issues cause those EXACT SYMPTOMS. The load difference on the entire system when running the PTO (and likely the mower, which creates drag on the entire system from rotational mass, etc. which by itself can raise operating temps some) and then disengaging the PTO is something that changes the load on the entire system.

I have seen the exact symptoms you are describing caused by everything from;

1. blocked fresh air intake screens (obvious but amazingly often overlooked)

2. plugged radiator screens (again, obvious but often overlooked)

3. plugged radiator fins because the owner found cleaning out the "plugged radiator screen to much of an inconvenience" so he simply removed the radiator screen when using it, but cleverly reinserted it once had a problem because, in his logic, "they must have put it in there for a reason".

4. it can be a dirty air filter (the initial and / or primary filter or both) causing the system to run lean because of the air restriction of a dirty air filter element and with the extra load of the PTO, it raises the engine temperature.

5. It is often a malfunctioning thermostat causing the thermostat to stick open and not allowing the system coolant to remain in the radiator long enough to actually be cooled by the radiator and fan. You would be amazed how many people remove the thermostats somehow thinking THAT will reduce overheating issues. Well, if the thermostat is sticking shut, that may in fact overheat the engine but the solution isn't removing the thermostat all together.

6. It can even be an improper mixture of water and coolant, causing the boiling point to be too low.

7. I have even seen where a well meaning owner added improper fuel additives to their fuel thinking that the "higher the octane, the better it will run"., which is true to a point, but doesn't include running 110 octane race fuel in a garden tractor. (that was one which was tough to find but talking to the owner and finding out that he had added the "race fuel" on a recommendation of a "neighbor" led to solving that issue).

8. It can also be electrical sensors but that doesn't usually fluctuate with the "load of the PTO" or no load. The electrical senors often either work or they don't. Very quick and erratic readings, going from Overheated to little or no temp and back again would signify a electrical issue.

9. I have even seen where people had not maintained their mower decks and the mowers were so plugged with previously wet debris which had hardened underneath the deck, not allowing it to function correctly. This created a tremendous extra load on the engine which drastically rose operating temps with the PTO engaged. Normally, this should be obvious to the operator because of the way the deck was not properly discharging debris and it actually blows it all around the deck perimeter leaving a mess all over the yard. But not in this case.

10. Bad water pumps, bad belts, damaged cooling fans, even bad alternators can cause enough drag to raise water temps. While the water pumps, belts and alternators usually cause issues regardless of the PTO engagement, the more the strain and stress on the engine, often the worse the overheating problem.

11. Hard to believe, but I have even seen where owners have installed the gator blades on the mower deck upside down on the spindles, effectively turning their mower decks into mini rototillers, creating huge drag issues causing it to overheat. Now you would think that the guy would have noticed how he was shredding his yard, but his response was to "raise the mower deck" because in his words "maybe those blades needed more room to work".

12. I have even seen where defective fuel system components were causing the system to run lean and the greater the load, the higher the engine temperatures.

In everyone of the issues I have outlined above, the engine temps ran hotter with the PTO engaged than when it was disengaged.

So while the problem may seem like it has a simple and obvious solution, that is not often the case. In some cases the sensors which activate electric fans can go bad, but many other things can cause issues beyond the electrical sensors. Most of the issues I have mentioned above all produce other symptoms which should be obvious as to their cause, but it never ceases to amaze me how these things are overlooked.

And the technician who is looking at the unit often hasn't had the opportunity to talk directly to the owner and or operator of the equipment so they may not be aware of these other symptoms. When they get the machine, it has been sitting and cooled down so it takes diagnostic skills to solve many issues. Sometimes it takes some extra skill and experience to look for the issues which are less than obvious. But anyone who simply switches and swaps out parts seeking the solution is not doing the customer or their boss any favors.

A good service technician is not only hard to find, they are someone you want to stay in touch with so if they change locations, you can follow them. I have worked as a parts and service manager before owning several different companies so I know how hard truly good help is to find. Glad you are happy with your new dealer. After all, that is what is important.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,228 Posts
Have seen #7 in the motorcycle industry quite a bit. You only ever need just enough octane to keep the engine from pinging. Any more is just a waste of money.
A customer came in to the parts counter where I work. He was complaining about running problems with his machine. It did not take me long to determine he was running aviation gas and that was his problem. About a week later this bike showed up in the service area. The mechanics were scratching there head as to why it wouldn't run correctly. After telling them what I discovered about the fuel they removed it. In a white bucket it looked like blue windshield washer fluid. Fresh gas finally solved the problem.
 
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
Top