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Discussion Starter #1
I have a question which probably requires the advice of a lawyer or someone who has in depth knowledge of Trade Marks & Registration Marks.

Is it a viloation of law to reproduce such things as decals or labels even though the decals & labels
are declared obsolete by the manufacturer, as well as the items that those decals & labels would be applied to.

This question is always presenting itself when we talk about restoration of no longer made vintage equipement. The way I see it, is that if I have a tractor that's pushing almost fifty years old, & the parts for it are no longer made & the equipement itself is obsoleted by the manufacturer, I think I would have the legal right to make a reproduction of the item or part as long as I clearly indicate that it's a reproduction and has no association with the original manufacturer.

Strangely enough, isin't this what the chinese & a lot of other countries are doing right now & appear to be getting away with it. Everything from shoe laces to cotton swabs are flooding the retail market place & no one has the ability to stop it or the willingness to stop it. Yet if someone here dares to reproduce a single decal or other sundry item, the giants are ready to destroy the little guy, but have no problem looking the other way regarding non obsolete business killing fake products comeing down the Ho Chi Min Trail. Anyone have any thoughts on this.
:think::read
 

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I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice.

However, the answer is simply 'maybe'. While JD may not currently be using that particular image, if they copyrighted it then they may still maintain the rights to it. Copyrights last a long time. If it's in a typical JD color, then one would expect that they have trademarked that exact color. Trademarks can usually be considered abandoned somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 years of inactivity. It becomes an issue of 'likelihood of confusion'. Deere does not own the term "Model 70". I can build a boat, or a car, or even a tractor and assign it to be a Model 70. I can print stickers and advertise it as a Model 70. However, if my sticker that says Model 70 looks similar enough to the JD Model 70 of years ago, then they can make a claim based on likelihood of confusion, that the sticker was meant to confuse the consumer.

With regard to China, they pay no mind to laws like that and fighting them over it has to be done in the Chinese court system. It's a losing battle. There are knock off, imitation products flowing out of that country at a breakneck pace. We've all heard of the ladies' purses and expensive clothes being faked for years, but I have ran across fakes that include high end flashlights, along with firearms magazines and accessories. The quality on some of the fakes is very good, and distinguishing them can actually be fairly difficult.
 

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I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice.

However, the answer is simply 'maybe'. While JD may not currently be using that particular image, if they copyrighted it then they may still maintain the rights to it. Copyrights last a long time. If it's in a typical JD color, then one would expect that they have trademarked that exact color. Trademarks can usually be considered abandoned somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 years of inactivity.
I agree with you. But having made my living at one of the very big companies in this country, I know that some trademarks are renewed without using them publicly. it might seem that the trademark was abandoned, but it is not, it is just not used officially. Copyrights last much longer and can also be renewed by the owner of the right. One can see this with the automobile industry which brings old name plates back to life now and than.
 

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Technically, even selling photocopies of an 80-year-old out of print Deere manual is against the law. The places selling Deere decals (for more than a few months anyway), have always been authorized by Deere, as far as I'm aware. I think the reason it seems to be legal is because in most cases what it would cost to sue the person making the decals would be much more than anything Deere has to gain, especially if Deere doesn't even sell the decals (or any other manufacturer of some item), so you rarely hear of lawsuits being filed.

Another consideration is that even if Deere doesn't profit directly from selling old decals (or other parts), it only adds to the Deere image when guys brag about having 90- or 100-year-old pieces of Deere equipment running and still being able to get parts for them.
 

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Thankfully I'm not an ambulance chasing shyster lawyer; but my SWAG is that if you make/have made the the decals for your own personal use, you'll be OK. But if you try to make a buck by selling them without Mama Deere's blessing, you'll probably have their legal department on your case.
 

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There have been some instances where folks made fake front wieghts with the IH logos on them and had them on display at shows. The weights were on small scaled down versions of big tractors. Not sure if they were for sale or not, but some people from Case came to investigate. I think the people found to be in violation were told what they were doing was not legal. Don't know much more than that.
 

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I know of a guy that's a supporting vendor of WFM who got into some trouble with JD legal for reproducing an out of production Deere part. In this day, IP and proprietary rights are taken seriously. We have a few federal and state agencies now that will come after any one found in violation of their laws and regulations. Fines and prison terms can be leveled against violators. Rather or not Deere legal will seek prosecution against anyone for reproducing decals isn't likely, but is a probability.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice.

However, the answer is simply 'maybe'. While JD may not currently be using that particular image, if they copyrighted it then they may still maintain the rights to it. Copyrights last a long time. If it's in a typical JD color, then one would expect that they have trademarked that exact color. Trademarks can usually be considered abandoned somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 years of inactivity. It becomes an issue of 'likelihood of confusion'. Deere does not own the term "Model 70". I can build a boat, or a car, or even a tractor and assign it to be a Model 70. I can print stickers and advertise it as a Model 70. However, if my sticker that says Model 70 looks similar enough to the JD Model 70 of years ago, then they can make a claim based on likelihood of confusion, that the sticker was meant to confuse the consumer.

With regard to China, they pay no mind to laws like that and fighting them over it has to be done in the Chinese court system. It's a losing battle. There are knock off, imitation products flowing out of that country at a breakneck pace. We've all heard of the ladies' purses and expensive clothes being faked for years, but I have ran across fakes that include high end flashlights, along with firearms magazines and accessories. The quality on some of the fakes is very good, and distinguishing them can actually be fairly difficult.
Since I posted the original thread here, I've read all these opinions to my question. I'm starting to think that if one makes items for personal use & not for profit, no one including big brother Green will give two hoots about it. The next level would be if somone has a little side business going on in their garage or basement, & maybe makes a few knock offs for a little profit no one will care either. As stated in one of the threads here, it would not be worth the expense to shut that little guy down, even if you could find him & prove that he/she is the guilty party.

But the best of all worlds would be that if your cranking out fake decals, manuals, or fake Smith & Wesson's, all you really need to do is somewhere on that knock off is print "Made in China" in a type font about the size of fruit fly poop, and then even the big guys will leave you alone. So I guess you can go big time bogus as long as you say the magic words, "made in China".

Now please realize that these are just the thoughts I'm having based on the comments posted here to my original post.
:think::brow::spy:
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I know of a guy that's a supporting vendor of WFM who got into some trouble with JD legal for reproducing an out of production Deere part. In this day, IP and proprietary rights are taken seriously. We have a few federal and state agencies now that will come after any one found in violation of their laws and regulations. Fines and prison terms can be leveled against violators. Rather or not Deere legal will seek prosecution against anyone for reproducing decals isn't likely, but is a probability.
I agree with you on the IP & proprietary rights. And I feel that unless you are doing something that is of a major threat to a large company like JD, they will probably leave you alone. But what I find the most interesting is your comment regarding "federal and state agencies". Your probably correct on that. Of course the biggest thieve & crooks can't allow little Mr. Nobody from makeing a couple of bucks that might might cut into the profits made by legalized theft of our profit, if any. No sir, can't have ambitious enterprising citizens making any money. Not even from the single sale of a five cent glass of lemonade.

When I was a kid, I wanted an english racer bike. My parents were hard working & great provides, but we did not have much cash for the extras. Because I lived in the city, I built myself a shoe shine box & went out on the street shinning people's shoes for fifteen cents a pop & earned half the money needed for the bike. Then my dad gave me the other half needed to buy the bike. But today, I probably would be ordered to stop operating a shoe sihne business without a license, & they probably would track down my dad & give him a fine he could not pay & throwing him in jail for encourageing me to earn the money I needed the old fashion way. Makes ya wonder about the stupid people we elect to come up with this stuff. Sorry for wondering off topic, on a thread that I started.
:morning2:
 

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Since I posted the original thread here, I've read all these opinions to my question. I'm starting to think that if one makes items for personal use & not for profit, no one including big brother Green will give two hoots about it. The next level would be if somone has a little side business going on in their garage or basement, & maybe makes a few knock offs for a little profit no one will care either.:
You can reproduce any copy right protected material or other intellectual property rights protected stuff for you own use/consumption (like copying a Cd, pages of a magazine/book, etc.) as long as you do not distribute (even free of charge) these materials to the general public.

The next level would get you into trouble with my employer, provided they would find out about it!
 

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Since I posted the original thread here, I've read all these opinions to my question. I'm starting to think that if one makes items for personal use & not for profit, no one including big brother Green will give two hoots about it. The next level would be if somone has a little side business going on in their garage or basement, & maybe makes a few knock offs for a little profit no one will care either. As stated in one of the threads here, it would not be worth the expense to shut that little guy down, even if you could find him & prove that he/she is the guilty party.

But the best of all worlds would be that if your cranking out fake decals, manuals, or fake Smith & Wesson's, all you really need to do is somewhere on that knock off is print "Made in China" in a type font about the size of fruit fly poop, and then even the big guys will leave you alone. So I guess you can go big time bogus as long as you say the magic words, "made in China".

Now please realize that these are just the thoughts I'm having based on the comments posted here to my original post.
:think::brow::spy:
Back in the 80's and 90's I worked with a piping designer whose BS was better than his designs. Somehow he got a hold of a couple copies of the company's AutoCAD software and license codes to activate it. No internet back then for AutoCAD to check back with the mother ship in Marin County as to whether a copy running on a machine was legit or not. Apparently he and his wife were doing sideline work with the software. Well Autodesk got wind of this and came down on him like white on rice. Rumor had it he was offered a plea deal by Autodesk...Pay for the software you stole or we press charges. Supposedly he took Autodesk's offer. The last I heard is that this guy is unsuccessfully trying to make a name for himself in county politics.

When I was a kid, I wanted an english racer bike. My parents were hard working & great provides, but we did not have much cash for the extras. Because I lived in the city, I built myself a shoe shine box & went out on the street shinning people's shoes for fifteen cents a pop & earned half the money needed for the bike. Then my dad gave me the other half needed to buy the bike. But today, I probably would be ordered to stop operating a shoe sihne business without a license, & they probably would track down my dad & give him a fine he could not pay & throwing him in jail for encourageing me to earn the money I needed the old fashion way. Makes ya wonder about the stupid people we elect to come up with this stuff. Sorry for wondering off topic, on a thread that I started.
:morning2:
Boy are you dating yourself with a shoeshine stand! :laugh: Anyway, you're not far off about getting in trouble with the Gummint if you tried that today. I've seen news reports on TV where kids have been ordered to shutdown lemonade stands because they lack the proper permits, etc.
 

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[Boy are you dating yourself with a shoeshine stand! :laugh: Anyway, you're not far off about getting in trouble with the Gummint if you tried that today. I've seen news reports on TV where kids have been ordered to shutdown lemonade stands because they lack the proper permits, etc.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I'm dating myself with that shoeshine box, but its the truth. And did you know back then, we had small mom & pop businesses called "Shoemaker" where you brought in your shoes for new heels & soles & stitching & all kinds of leather repair. Yea, today you pay $100. for shoes & then you throw them out when the heel wears down. Iv'e seen so many businesses disappear over the years. Hell, my dad was a tool & dye maker. Today a tool & dye maker is somebody who can turn on the computer but can hardly read a bluprint or set up a machine tool. I may be dated, but I'm probably a hell of a lot smarter than people half my age, & I never really went to any fancy schools. :tongue:
 

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[Boy are you dating yourself with a shoeshine stand! :laugh: Anyway, you're not far off about getting in trouble with the Gummint if you tried that today. I've seen news reports on TV where kids have been ordered to shutdown lemonade stands because they lack the proper permits, etc.
Yes, I'm dating myself with that shoeshine box, but its the truth. And did you know back then, we had small mom & pop businesses called "Shoemaker" where you brought in your shoes for new heels & soles & stitching & all kinds of leather repair. Yea, today you pay $100. for shoes & then you throw them out when the heel wears down. Iv'e seen so many businesses disappear over the years. Hell, my dad was a tool & dye maker. Today a tool & dye maker is somebody who can turn on the computer but can hardly read a bluprint or set up a machine tool. I may be dated, but I'm probably a hell of a lot smarter than people half my age, & I never really went to any fancy schools. :tongue:[/QUOTE]
I am probably even more dated than you! I learned how to black smith my own hacksaw frames, filed a frame and a dice that had to fit through it in all directions, and learned how to make oiling groves in round stock with the help of a chisel. and that all to be able to do medical research at a later age. However, now that I am retired, the medical research dos not help me a lot, but my practical skills, learned when I was way younger, help me to play with green machines and other handyman stuff! I am much more proud of having been a craftsman than of having done some medical patents (almost anybody who had major surgery in the last 15 years, had this done with the help of one of my inventions).
 

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Yes, I'm dating myself with that shoeshine box, but its the truth. And did you know back then, we had small mom & pop businesses called "Shoemaker" where you brought in your shoes for new heels & soles & stitching & all kinds of leather repair. Yea, today you pay $100. for shoes & then you throw them out when the heel wears down. Iv'e seen so many businesses disappear over the years. Hell, my dad was a tool & dye maker. Today a tool & dye maker is somebody who can turn on the computer but can hardly read a bluprint or set up a machine tool. I may be dated, but I'm probably a hell of a lot smarter than people half my age, & I never really went to any fancy schools. :tongue:
Yep, I remember shoemakers (aka cobblers), and watchmakers, and seamstresses/tailors, and milkmen, and meter-men, and full service gas stations, etc. I don't have any fancy schooling either; but I sure do admire craftsmen.

I am probably even more dated than you! I learned how to black smith my own hacksaw frames, filed a frame and a dice that had to fit through it in all directions, and learned how to make oiling groves in round stock with the help of a chisel. and that all to be able to do medical research at a later age. However, now that I am retired, the medical research dos not help me a lot, but my practical skills, learned when I was way younger, help me to play with green machines and other handyman stuff! I am much more proud of having been a craftsman than of having done some medical patents (almost anybody who had major surgery in the last 15 years, had this done with the help of one of my inventions).
Very cool on both endeavors in my opinion!
 

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Yep, I remember shoemakers (aka cobblers), and watchmakers, and seamstresses/tailors, and milkmen, and meter-men, and full service gas stations, etc. I don't have any fancy schooling either; but I sure do admire craftsmen.



Very cool on both endeavors in my opinion!
Yeah. When you stop & think about all the trades & skills that have been lost over the past fifty years, you start to wonder if we are "progressing" ourselves into a third or fourth rate society. But then I look around and see what a great nation we are if you consider that we have the most high tech educated morons in the world. No common sense, no basic skills. But they all can tell ya about Ipads, droids, smartphones. Smartphones are a real hoot. Why I know people who have smart phones but are so stupid they can't earn enough money to pay for their use. Ask me how I know all this stuff. I've got grand children who are dumber than a bag of hammers but you would think your surrounded by a bunch of Einstein clones when you hear them talk about this stuff. And then they laugh at you when you tell them you had to go shine shoes to pay for your bike because there wasen't any money for the extras.
:empathy3:
 

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Yeah. When you stop & think about all the trades & skills that have been lost over the past fifty years, you start to wonder if we are "progressing" ourselves into a third or fourth rate society. But then I look around and see what a great nation we are if you consider that we have the most high tech educated morons in the world. No common sense, no basic skills. But they all can tell ya about Ipads, droids, smartphones. Smartphones are a real hoot. Why I know people who have smart phones but are so stupid they can't earn enough money to pay for their use. Ask me how I know all this stuff. I've got grand children who are dumber than a bag of hammers but you would think your surrounded by a bunch of Einstein clones when you hear them talk about this stuff. And then they laugh at you when you tell them you had to go shine shoes to pay for your bike because there wasen't any money for the extras.
:empathy3:
But on the other hand, your grandfather may have thought about you: what a dummy, he shines shoes to buy some extras for his stupid bike. he should invest that money in a pair of good shoes (made of real leather, tops and soles and everything in between) or some nice horse reigns!

My wife teaches at an university, and she is pretty positive that the upcoming generation can continue to push this country forward into a good future (if we just can stop to getting involved with stupid wars). Talent and dedication is out there among the young generation!
 

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But on the other hand, your grandfather may have thought about you: what a dummy, he shines shoes to buy some extras for his stupid bike. he should invest that money in a pair of good shoes (made of real leather, tops and soles and everything in between) or some nice horse reigns!

My wife teaches at an university, and she is pretty positive that the upcoming generation can continue to push this country forward into a good future (if we just can stop to getting involved with stupid wars). Talent and dedication is out there among the young generation!
Well in my case, which I can only speak of, is that my GrandFather was proud of me in that I had enough on the ball to earn the money I needed. My grandfather was orphaned at twelve years old in Italy. He ended up as a water boy on construction projects in Egypt. Saved his money & bought a boat ticket to come to America. Got off the boat at seventeen years of age, got a job with the sanitation dept. of NY city. Got married, bought an empty city lot & built a house, then built a boarding house for summer guests on the coney island beach and paid taxes & obeyed all the laws of the land & became a U.S. citizen before fathering any of his children. Now on the other hand, if I did not get up off my ass & just whined and did nothing, he would have seen me as a disappointment---and a dummy.

As far as the future of the country goes.... When you have people on facebook taking down their own photo & replacing it with the photo of their favorite politician or some govt agency initials, what does that tell you about the people who will move the country forward? Where are we moving too & do you want to move there with them. A bunch of sheep with no imagination waiting to be led around by the first moron that comes along. Just my two cents here. Everybody has there own take on things. Im not trying to be arguementative. :usa
 
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