[Colby edwards]

Hi, my tractor wouldn't start. I found a broke wire on the ignition switch and fixed it. It cranked but then wouldnt move when i pressed the forward and reverse pedals. I replaced the switch and relays as a precaution because they were old but it still wouldnt move. Now, i cant even get it to crank. It turns over but wont start. I hired a mechanic and he says hes stumped. Any help is much appreciated.

 

[Kennyd]

No codes flashing? Has the battery been load tested?

 

[Tonkabot]

I don't know if you have the Thermistor behind the fuse panel like the 4500,4600,4700. Look for the thread on those - there is one where I replaced mine with a $0.50 one I got fro digikey, instead of the $11 one at greentractorparts.

Confused by your terminology: to me, cranking means the starter is spinning the engine fine - but sounds like your not getting fuel which that thermistor will do. Mine only failed after running it for a while on a hot day. your problem sounds a little different.

 

[JD Driver]

Your 4710 is one of the "Ten Series" tractors and shares the same technical manual as the 4510, and the 4610 that I have.

One of the improvements of the Ten Series tractors is a re-design of the fuel shutoff solenoid circuit to get rid of the "thermistor" (really a resettable thermal fuse) used in the earlier models, so that shouldn't be your problem.

The 4510/4610/4710 do have a new module called a Fuel Solenoid Timer Module which plugs into the fuse/relay box and replaces the "thermistor". It seems to be an improvement in the circuit design, but that module can also fail, and I had to replace mine at 1150 hrs.

Let's not speculate on failure modes just yet. The first question is whether or not you hear the loud clunk which occurs when a properly operating fuel shutoff solenoid retracts when you turn the key from OFF to ON(Run). If you don't hear the fuel shutoff solenoid retract, then the engine will never get fuel and will not start.

If you want to test the fuel shutoff solenoid, simply unplug the 3 contact plug (near the fuel injection pump) and measure the resistance of both the hold-in coil and the pull-in coil. BTW, it is common for the A to C measurement to be closer to 24 ohms than 12 ohms, and is not a problem if it reads that high.

Agree with others that it is important to have a good battery and also to let us know if the tractor is flashing any error codes. You seem to actually have 2 problems, but the first step is probably to get it starting again.

There are two error codes associated with forward/reverse pedal voltage being out of range. If either error condition exists, it would prevent movement in either direction.

There is another error code that flashes if you press either pedal when the seat safety switch is not closed. This would also prevent movement in either direction, so check your seat safety switch.

 

[Colby edwards]

No codes flashing? Has the battery been load tested?

No codes flashing and i did test the battery.

 

[Colby edwards]

I don't know if you have the Thermistor behind the fuse panel like the 4500,4600,4700. Look for the thread on those - there is one where I replaced mine with a $0.50 one I got fro digikey, instead of the $11 one at greentractorparts.

Confused by your terminology: to me, cranking means the starter is spinning the engine fine - but sounds like your not getting fuel which that thermistor will do. Mine only failed after running it for a while on a hot day. your problem sounds a little different.

I saw the thermistor Thread and plan on replacing it tomorrow if i can get one. I think that will fix the starting issue but not the wont move issue

 

[Colby edwards]

Your 4710 is one of the "Ten Series" tractors and shares the same technical manual as the 4510, and the 4610 that I have.

One of the improvements of the Ten Series tractors is a re-design of the fuel shutoff solenoid circuit to get rid of the "thermistor" (really a resettable thermal fuse) used in the earlier models, so that shouldn't be your problem.

The 4510/4610/4710 do have a new module called a Fuel Solenoid Timer Module which plugs into the fuse/relay box and replaces the "thermistor". It seems to be an improvement in the circuit design, but that module can also fail, and I had to replace mine at 1150 hrs.

Let's not speculate on failure modes just yet. The first question is whether or not you hear the loud clunk which occurs when a properly operating fuel shutoff solenoid retracts when you turn the key from OFF to ON(Run). If you don't hear the fuel shutoff solenoid retract, then the engine will never get fuel and will not start.

If you want to test the fuel shutoff solenoid, simply unplug the 3 contact plug (near the fuel injection pump) and measure the resistance of both the hold-in coil and the pull-in coil. BTW, it is common for the A to C measurement to be closer to 24 ohms than 12 ohms, and is not a problem if it reads that high.

View attachment 809018

Agree with others that it is important to have a good battery and also to let us know if the tractor is flashing any error codes. You seem to actually have 2 problems, but the first step is probably to get it starting again.

There are two error codes associated with forward/reverse pedal voltage being out of range. If either error condition exists, it would prevent movement in either direction.

There is another error code that flashes if you press either pedal when the seat safety switch is not closed. This would also prevent movement in either direction, so check your seat safety switch.

Great info. Are you saying my 4710 doesnt have a thermistor so the problem should be in the fuel shutoff solenoid?

 

[Colby edwards]

Great info. Are you saying my 4710 doesnt have a thermistor so the problem should be in the fuel shutoff solenoid?

Also, i do not hear the solenoid click when i turn the key

 

[JD Driver]

Great info. Are you saying my 4710 doesnt have a thermistor so the problem should be in the fuel shutoff solenoid?

Yes, that is correct that the 4710 doesn't have a thermistor. The fuel shutoff timer module shown in this circuit performs the function that used to be performed by the thermistor. A bad fuel shutoff solenoid is one possibility. Please run the resistance checks described above to see if the fuel shutoff solenoid checks out good or bad.

Also, i do not hear the solenoid click when i turn the key,

Besides a bad fuel shutoff solenoid, you could also have a bad K3 relay. Since the K1 relay is used only for the cold start manifold heater, and is the same style relay, you could swap the K1 and K3 relays and see if the tractor starts. If it does, the K3 relay is bad. These relays are only about $15. I always keep a spare on hand after the K3 relay failed on my 4610 (and kept it from starting).

 

[Colby edwards]

Your 4710 is one of the "Ten Series" tractors and shares the same technical manual as the 4510, and the 4610 that I have.

One of the improvements of the Ten Series tractors is a re-design of the fuel shutoff solenoid circuit to get rid of the "thermistor" (really a resettable thermal fuse) used in the earlier models, so that shouldn't be your problem.

The 4510/4610/4710 do have a new module called a Fuel Solenoid Timer Module which plugs into the fuse/relay box and replaces the "thermistor". It seems to be an improvement in the circuit design, but that module can also fail, and I had to replace mine at 1150 hrs.

Let's not speculate on failure modes just yet. The first question is whether or not you hear the loud clunk which occurs when a properly operating fuel shutoff solenoid retracts when you turn the key from OFF to ON(Run). If you don't hear the fuel shutoff solenoid retract, then the engine will never get fuel and will not start.

If you want to test the fuel shutoff solenoid, simply unplug the 3 contact plug (near the fuel injection pump) and measure the resistance of both the hold-in coil and the pull-in coil. BTW, it is common for the A to C measurement to be closer to 24 ohms than 12 ohms, and is not a problem if it reads that high.

View attachment 809018

Agree with others that it is important to have a good battery and also to let us know if the tractor is flashing any error codes. You seem to actually have 2 problems, but the first step is probably to get it starting again.

There are two error codes associated with forward/reverse pedal voltage being out of range. If either error condition exists, it would prevent movement in either direction.

There is another error code that flashes if you press either pedal when the seat safety switch is not closed. This would also prevent movement in either direction, so check your seat safety switch.

I tested it. The a to b was .1 and the a to c was 22 so i assume its bad.

 

[JD Driver]

I tested it. The a to b was .1 and the a to c was 22 so i assume its bad.

Not necessarily. The 22 ohms on the hold-in coil (A to C) is fine, but the 0.1 ohms on the pull-in coil (A to B) is a little low.

Would you also measure from the metal case of the fuel shutoff solenoid to both the B terminal and C terminal and report back with those resistances? There should be no continuity (infinite resistance) between ground and either of these coils with the fuel shutoff solenoid unplugged. Unless the pull-in coil has been hot and has shorted to ground, it might be ok too.

I would re-check that A to B resistance measurement. If the pull-in coil really has a resistance of only 0.1 ohms, it would try to pull over 100A which would exceed the rating of the K3 relay (and other things).

Make sure that the F5 fuse is not blown.

Have you tried swapping the K1 and K3 relays?

 

[Colby edwards]

Not necessarily. The 22 ohms on the hold-in coil (A to C) is fine, but the 0.1 ohms on the pull-in coil (A to B) is a little low.

Would you also measure from the metal case of the fuel shutoff solenoid to both the B terminal and C terminal and report back with those resistances? There should be no continuity (infinite resistance) between ground and either of these coils with the fuel shutoff solenoid unplugged. Unless the pull-in coil has been hot and has shorted to ground, it might be ok too.

I would re-check that A to B resistance measurement. If the pull-in coil really has a resistance of only 0.1 ohms, it would try to pull over 100A which would exceed the rating of the K3 relay (and other things).

Make sure that the F5 fuse is not blown.

Have you tried swapping the K1 and K3 relays?

I replaced k1,2 and 3 last week so they should be good. We checked the fuses too but I will check again. When I get back gone I will check the resistance. I went ahead and bought one because the close at 12.

 

[Colby edwards]

I replaced k1,2 and 3 last week so they should be good. We checked the fuses too but I will check again. When I get back gone I will check the resistance. I went ahead and bought one because the close at 12.

The new solenoid didn’t work. The k5 fuse is good. I went to swap the new k1 and k3 relays and accidentally disconnected the ignition switch and I’m not sure how the wires go back on. I know where the ground and two hot wires go but can’t tell what the other 3 go to. Should’ve marked them. Any help figuring that out now?

 

[JD Driver]

The new solenoid didn’t work. The k5 fuse is good. I went to swap the new k1 and k3 relays and accidentally disconnected the ignition switch and I’m not sure how the wires go back on. I know where the ground and two hot wires go but can’t tell what the other 3 go to. Should’ve marked them. Any help figuring that out now?

The wires in the harness go into an 8 pin socket that only plugs onto the S1 ignition switch one way, so I don't understand what is going on with your ignition switch.

It looks like only 5 of the 8 wires are used. Hope this helps.

If your fuel shutoff solenoid and K3 relay are good, then it is possible that the K6 fuel solenoid timer module is bad. The K6 timer module actuates the K3 relay to activate the fuel shutoff solenoid pull-in coil and also provides power to the engine run relay.

 

[CTGuy]

You guys are far more knowledgeable on these issues than I, but I'll tell you what I did in a similar situation with my 4510, and it worked:

I reviewed the go/no go scenarios in the service manual and realized that "PTO" was referred to over and over. Since I hardly ever use the PTO, I figured it might be that switch. Sure enough, messing with it a bit allowed the tractor to start and everything to operate normally. It will take you two seconds to pop the PTO switch on and off a few times. Maybe it will work. It did for me.

 

[JD Driver]

You guys are far more knowledgeable on these issues than I, but I'll tell you what I did in a similar situation with my 4510, and it worked:

I reviewed the go/no go scenarios in the service manual and realized that "PTO" was referred to over and over. Since I hardly ever use the PTO, I figured it might be that switch. Sure enough, messing with it a bit allowed the tractor to start and everything to operate normally. It will take you two seconds to pop the PTO switch on and off a few times. Maybe it will work. It did for me.

You are correct that the PTO switch plays a major role in getting the tractor started (for safety reasons). There are LOTS of failure points that can keep one of these from starting, but fortunately they are still pretty robust.

Keep in mind, however, that the PTO switch in the OFF position powers the K2 start relay, so if the PTO switch is either ON or failed in a way that it cannot provide power to the K2 start relay, neither the starter or the fuel shutoff solenoid can be activated. In other words, if the starter will engage and spin the engine, the PTO switch is not the problem. I believe the starter is working on this tractor, so the problem is not the PTO switch.

 

[Colby edwards]

The wires in the harness go into an 8 pin socket that only plugs onto the S1 ignition switch one way, so I don't understand what is going on with your ignition switch.

It looks like only 5 of the 8 wires are used. Hope this helps.

View attachment 809691

View attachment 809693

View attachment 809692

If your fuel shutoff solenoid and K3 relay are good, then it is possible that the K6 fuel solenoid timer module is bad. The K6 timer module actuates the K3 relay to activate the fuel shutoff solenoid pull-in coil and also provides power to the engine run relay.

 

[Colby edwards]

This is my starter. I have the 2 red wires and the green wire attached. How can i tell where the other 3 go?

 

[JD Driver]

This is my starter. I have the 2 red wires and the green wire attached. How can i tell where the other 3 go?

Unfortunately, it looks like someone has butchered the wiring on your key switch and removed the locking collar that would normally allow you to remove the key switch without losing track of the switch wiring positions. I took my 4610 apart, and here is what it should look like.

Here is another picture that shows the 5 wires (4 red, 1 green) and their positions on the key switch. You mention you have 6 wires, but shouldn't according to the technical manual.

Since 4 of the 5 wires are red, you will need to trace these red wires to places within the fuse panel to determine where they are plugged into the key switch.

1 The largest red wire is the main power supply wire to the switch and plugs into position 1. It traces back to one side of the F1 fuse. Remove the F1 fuse in the fuse panel and verify that the position 1 red wire traces to one side of this fuse.

3 Another red wire plugs into position 3. It traces back to one side of the F10 fuse. Remove the F10 fuse in the fuse panel and verify that the position 3 red wire traces to one side of this fuse.

5 Another red wire plugs into position 5. It traces back to one side of the F5 fuse. Remove the F5 fuse in the fuse panel and verify that the position 5 red wire traces to one side of this fuse.

6 Another red wire plugs into position 6. It traces back to terminal 30 of the K2 start relay. Remove the K2 relay in the fuse panel and verify that the position 6 red wire traces to terminal 30 of this relay.

7 The green wire attaches to position 7 of the key switch.

Hope this helps.

 

[Colby edwards]

Unfortunately, it looks like someone has butchered the wiring on your key switch and removed the locking collar that would normally allow you to remove the key switch without losing track of the switch wiring positions. I took my 4610 apart, and here is what it should look like.

View attachment 809868

Here is another picture that shows the 5 wires (4 red, 1 green) and their positions on the key switch. You mention you have 6 wires, but shouldn't according to the technical manual.

View attachment 809869

Since 4 of the 5 wires are red, you will need to trace these red wires to places within the fuse panel to determine where they are plugged into the key switch.

1 The largest red wire is the main power supply wire to the switch and plugs into position 1. It traces back to one side of the F1 fuse. Remove the F1 fuse in the fuse panel and verify that the position 1 red wire traces to one side of this fuse.

3 Another red wire plugs into position 3. It traces back to one side of the F10 fuse. Remove the F10 fuse in the fuse panel and verify that the position 3 red wire traces to one side of this fuse.

5 Another red wire plugs into position 5. It traces back to one side of the F5 fuse. Remove the F5 fuse in the fuse panel and verify that the position 5 red wire traces to one side of this fuse.

6 Another red wire plugs into position 6. It traces back to terminal 30 of the K2 start relay. Remove the K2 relay in the fuse panel and verify that the position 6 red wire traces to terminal 30 of this relay.
View attachment 809873

7 The green wire attaches to position 7 of the key switch.

Hope this helps.

Yes this will most definitely help. 1. Should there be voltage on all the positions when I turn the key on and that’s how you verify your pulling the fuse? 2. I see letters in each switch connection like ign, gnd, s1, etc. can you tell which fuse goes to each of these? Just thinking I could figure it out that way 3. Should I just go buy the collar that’s missing and do it right?