[Gizmo2]

Does anyone recall or know what the hydraulic pump flow rate is on the JD 650 tractor?

 

[Kennyd]

PM user JD755, he has all the older literature and may have it.

If I had to guess, I'd say 3-4 GPM.

 

[RandyM]

OK Giz, what are ye up to? :unknown: Adding to the stable? Making a cool hydraulic thingy? Come on what gives. :tongue:

 

[Gizmo2]

OK Giz, what are ye up to? :unknown: Adding to the stable? Making a cool hydraulic thingy? Come on what gives. :tongue:

You kill me! Not tellin!

 

[Gizmo2]

Actually, The ONE thing that drives me nuts on our 2320 is that fact I can not operate the the FEL bucket and the lift arms at the same time. It very well may be just me and or the controls. I ran the 650 for 20 some years and do not recall this to be an issue, but it could have been in the first couple of years. Maybe it's just the controls and nothing I can do about it. Anyway, just doin a little research.
Boy, some people are nosy . :lol: Just kidding!

 

[dieselshadow]

The ONE thing that drives me nuts on our 2320 is that fact I can not operate the the FEL bucket and the lift arms at the same time.

Isn't that due to an open-center hydraulic system?:think:

 

[JD755]

The JD 650 has a 7 cc pump with a flow rate of 3 gpm. The 750 has a 9 cc pump with a flow rate of 4 gpm. Kenny is a pretty good guesser.

 

[Gizmo2]

Isn't that due to an open-center hydraulic system?:think:

Yea, ok. I would not know an Open-center hydraulic system if it walked up and slapped me in the face.

 

[Gizmo2]

The JD 650 has a 7 cc pump with a flow rate of 3 gpm. The 750 has a 9 cc pump with a flow rate of 4 gpm. Kenny is a pretty good guesser.

Thanks JD, but now it's just about clear as mud why I seem to perceive the issue I have noted.
Kenny made a stab in the dark (To guess when you've got no idea what so ever) are you kidding me.:lol:

 

[Kennyd]

Isn't that due to an open-center hydraulic system?:think:

Not at all, it has to due with the way the valve is ported internally in reality. But I suspect the "problem" here has more to due with linkage geometry than anything else.

From this link: http://www.precisionfluidpower.com/Glossary-of-Hydraulic-Terms.htm

SERIES TYPE: A multiple spool valve in which the return oil from the first spool is directed to the inlet of the second spool (and from the second to the third, etc.). This type valve permits simultaneous operation of two or more functions with the same oil flow. However, the total pressure requirements of all functions are accumulative.

PARALLEL TYPE: A multiple spool valve in which the inlet oil is connected to all spools simultaneously. If more than one spool is actuated, the function requiring the lowest pressure will operate first

Yea, ok. I would not know an Open-center hydraulic system if it walked up and slapped me in the face.

 

[Gizmo2]

Kennyd +1
Gizmo2 +1

 

[Gizmo2]

Please see next post. Don't know what is wrong here with this post but I was not able to post all information.

 

[Gizmo2]

Ok, so in my, seems to be never-ending, search for why the FEL bucket cylinders are so slow on the 2320.
I sent off and email to a guy (we'll call Ken) I know. The guy (we now call Ken) would like me to post it on the forum, so all can learn and so I can apparently look like a dumbass to all instead of just him.
***Begin Email***
"I am doing some research here on the slow response of the bucket on the 200CX loader and instead of trying to figure it out myself I would rather take the easy road, ask you. Hope you do not mind?
Well even if you do mind so what! LOL! Not really. LOL!
Notice item number 6 in the attached illustration, it is a E40500 Orifice and is installed on the bucket curl/dump cylinder circuit.
Questions;
1) Why is the orifice there other than slow the bucket speed?
2) How does this play out with the regen circuit?
If you go over this I would give you a call to discuss, need a time though
I will appreciate any and all efforts you can give,"
***End Email***

Kennyd, Did I miss anything?:lol::lol:

 

[Kennyd]

This "Ken" guy sounds like a smart cookie, I bet he responded with something like this:

Keith, you know I NEVER mind helping...even you!* I just would rather do it in on the DT site to keep activity up.

Are you sure the orifice is on the dump/curl circuit?* It was my understanding that it was supposed to be on the lift/lower circuit to prevent the loader from falling to fast-especially when the joystick was pushed into float mode.* I researched this years ago (before the 200 series loader) and that is what I remember.* Can you verify where it's at on yours?

 

[Gizmo2]

This "Ken" guy sounds like a smart cookie, I bet he responded with something like this:

Dang it, I lose again!

 

[Gizmo2]

Ken,
I have not taken apart anything, just going by the drawing.
I do know the 60 loader I had on the 650 had an orifice in the lift/lower circuit and the JD drawing on the JD site shows it also.
I currently have the loader off the 2320, plow is on, but plan to go up to the upper barn and take the hydraulic line apart to verify. The drawing indicates the orifice is in the hydraulic line for the rod end of the bucket cylinder. The drawing keys on the JD site only indicates 1 orifice used.
I did manage to find this from 2006.

 

[Kennyd]

Since your loader is off now for the winter, be sure it's blocked up before you take any fitting loose or it may move and squirt oil everywhere-you probably know that but I just thought I would mention it anyway to be sure.

Now that you posted that DTAC, I do remember hearing about that on TBN many moons ago...if it's (a orifice on the curl line) in there I say take it out. If you understand how the regen function works then it's not needed IMHO.

I assume you searched the word "orifice" in the JD O/O section on TBN? I found the old threads about the "floppy bucket" problems, but no one complained about it being to slow like you are. And to be clear, you are only complaining about the dump/curl correct?

 

[Gizmo2]

Since your loader is off now for the winter, be sure it's blocked up before you take any fitting loose or it may move and squirt oil everywhere-you probably know that but I just thought I would mention it anyway to be sure.

Ken, of course I know this!! But... I would have never given it a thought, glad you mentioned it. Guess there is a reason I'm a dumbass but figure no sense being one if I can't show it from time to time. Good one, thanks.

Now that you posted that DTAC, I do remember hearing about that on TBN many moons ago...if it's (a orifice on the curl line) in there I say take it out. If you understand how the regen function works then it's not needed IMHO.

I got the DTAC off of TBN. I am pretty sure I understand the Regen but taking the orifice out may make the Regen that much faster, we'll see.
FWIW, I also see on the JD site the 410 loader has the same orifice, same part number and only one also.

Yes, it's the dump/curl that drives me nuts.

I will add, when I added the power angle front snow plow the angle cylinders for the plow became loaded guns and operate extremely fast. I had to add orifice fittings to the hydraulic lines that feed the cylinders. Note: The control lines for the angle cylinders are fed from the same connection as the dump/curl circuit. I realize the plow power angle cylinders are only being filled one at a time vs 2 cylinders on the bucket dump/curl but.......

 

[BethesdaEC]

The 2000 series has a parallel system. A parallel system will give you much more breakout force since you can send pressure to the lift arms and the curl at the same time. Imagine you are trying to break a root with your loader. You can apply force with the lift arm or you can apply force by curling, with a parallel system slam that DSCV down and left and you are doing both actions and doubling the applied force. This also creates some scary situations since you can generate over 2000 lbs of force and with an immovable object you can lift the rear wheels off the ground even with 900 lbs hanging on the back.

With a serial system as the oil is pumped into the lift cylinders, oil is being displaced from the other of the cylinder, you can take that oil and run it into the curl, but as that pressure increases on the curl it fights the lift cylinder and results in a much weaker lift action. Effectively you cannot force multiply to get the breakout force.

 

[BethesdaEC]

On other thing, an open system is always a continuous loop and the oil is always flowing at a mostly constant rate. The pressure at idle is very low, just enough to keep the circulation going. The name comes from the type of valve, when the value is in neutral the value is open allowing the circulation. When the value is activated, it closes the open center and diverts the flow into the cylinder and pressure rises accordingly. Unfortunately the next value is mostly being starved but there is a little bit of bypass allowing some flow through but at a greatly reduced rate. You can see this when you try both lift and curl at the same time.

A closed system or variable displacement has a closed value and at idle the pressure is high and constant but the flow is zero. The pump is a variable displacement pump so the pump is at a near zero displacement. When a value is opened the pressure drops and the pump increases the displacement to maintain the pressure. Usually this is found on a construction grade TLB and this setup allows much better parallel functions such as lift and curl.

All HST have a variable displacement setup for the HST. My 2520 has three hydro pumps, the steering, implement and the one that usually isn't talked about the transmission. My tractor has about a 15 GPM variable displacement pump dedicated to the transmission.

Variable displacement pump are very cool, they have a rotating piston assembly that looks like a revolver. The pistons ride on a swash plate that tilts to increase the displacement on demand.