Green Tractor Talk banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
101 - 120 of 200 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,290 Posts
The closest I've been to southern California is passing through the LA airport once, so I haven't witnessed the gloom first hand. I did spend several months in Egypt and looking out over Cairo from the top of the escarpment made me think you could walk across on the air pollution. Scary and sad.
 

·
Registered
2014 1025R
Joined
·
128 Posts
Perhaps fire fighters and related agencies will get wavers for their jobs.
I doubt that they would lobby for that route. There aren't enough folks working for those agencies to get the work done. They depend on both contracts for work on their own land and for landowners to do their part in maintaining fire safety. It would not work to give only the agencies themselves waivers. The agencies do have crews, but their primary tools are standards, education about the standards, and enforcement when that's not enough.

Better to clean up our own messes on our own property with the agencies' expertise as guidance vs. massive armies of government workers with the right to hack and slash at anything anywhere. And no one in CalFire or CDF wants that anyway, though I'm sure they're frustrated with some landowners' lack of engagement in this issue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,793 Posts
This engine ban /restriction thing must be real. Its being discussed on the atv, utv and motorcycle forums too. Seems to be a lot of those types seem to think this is going to be the end of those toys. But most of those are way over 25 hp. But those folks tend to like to camp out so many of the want to know just how a small generator could possibly be zero emissions.

lots of talk about going solar. I just don’t see that working very well in the north. My solar lights that worked fine but in July no longer get enough light to recharge them. so they don’t work very well now that the days have gotten shorter. Seems to me some law makers think everyone one lives in sunny California.
 

·
Registered
2014 1025R
Joined
·
128 Posts
Some news:

CARB (California Air Resources Board, which has been charged with writing the rules for this law) has indicated that they don't believe small generators would be included until 2028 at the very earliest due to there not being any other choices showing up on the horizon. Says two things: first, they're definitely not taking 2024 as a hard deadline and, second, they're treating different tools in different ways.

My guess would be small tools that work well on battery today will be the first to go. So, leaf blowers, string trimmers, hedge trimmers, and maybe even push mowers. I'm guessing chainsaws will go into two categories: bigger and smaller than 50cc. There's precedent on the leaf blower thing, as many cities have banned them for a few years and no apocalypse of unblown leaves has happened. I think generators will be last. Somewhere in the middle will be 10-20 HP stuff: chippers, splitters, riding mowers, etc. There's nothing really on the horizon to cover that category, but we'll see what the market comes up with.
 

·
Premium Member
2020 1025R, 120R, 54D
Joined
·
2,734 Posts
One thing that needs to change for battery powered equipment to take hold is battery obsolescence. If I buy a battery >whatever< today, I feel replacement batteries should be guaranteed available for 10-15 years, maybe more. I don't want to replace a shed full of tools because I can no longer get batteries for them.

Proprietary batteries are cash cows for every manufacturer. Maybe standardized batteries, or batteries that can easily have internal cells replaced, would be much better for the consumer, and the effort to eliminate gas powered OPE.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,632 Posts
One thing that needs to change for battery powered equipment to take hold is battery obsolescence. If I buy a battery >whatever< today, I feel replacement batteries should be guaranteed available for 10-15 years, maybe more. I don't want to replace a shed full of tools because I can no longer get batteries for them.

Proprietary batteries are cash cows for every manufacturer. Maybe standardized batteries, or batteries that can easily have internal cells replaced, would be much better for the consumer, and the effort to eliminate gas powered OPE.
100% agree!
I have more 18V DeWalt than I care to count. Most of them can use an adapter allowing me to use the newer style 20V batteries. A bit cumbersome, but a very acceptable situation. My laser transit however is not able to accomodate the adapter, so DeWalts 18V battery is the ONLY option which forces me to always keep a couple of those around. So when they go bad I hope replacements are available!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,121 Posts
I gave up on gas powered tools like weed eaters, hedge trimmers and blowers years ago. What I hate is the fact they keep changing sizes, shapes, and voltages of the batteries. Since they are going to force the use of electric, maybe manufactures need to be forced into battery standardization.
 

·
Premium Member
2020 1025R, 120R, 54D
Joined
·
2,734 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
What starts in the land of fruits and nuts (california residents) tends to spread to the rest of the USA ,, unfortunately.
You are spot on. Especially since California is loosing tax paying buisinesses and people at a record rate. There are places close to the border of California you couldn't find a house to buy if you had cash. I still remember roaming the country as a kid and I'm talking 10, 20 miles on foot with friends. Only rule was be home before dark. Now - sad. Had a friend move to my high school from California and nice people, dad was great guy, but she thought we were backwards here in Arkansas. Lets see, drive every kind of equipment, truck at age 10. Have an accident and see who fights to pull over to help you. Freedom. Now just not the same. It's getting so bad I'm even starting to lock my doors, mercy. "Old Fart" lol
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Heh, well it doesn't take much of an imagination to figure that the high gas prices are a deliberate attempt to drive consumers towards electric.

Don't get me wrong, I think for someone who only needs to drive a few miles into the city for work or whatever, an electric vehicle could make sense. Then there are those of us who like to take backroads and drive thru the middle of nowhere to get where we're going while avoiding the urban clutter. And there are those of us who like to venture off road, away from pavement and civilization. For that, having an electric vehicle makes no sense.

As said before, it should not be forced on people. Let the market decide instead, let people buy whichever suits them best. If I want a gas chainsaw and a diesel truck, that should be my choice. Meanwhile if my neighbor down the road wants a cordless weed wacker and an electric car, that should be his choice.
Agreed. No one is thinking about what to do with all the toxic useless lithium batteries 20 years from now. Also lithium mines are very toxic. No free lunch, we do need to keep our water and air clean, but mandating moving pollution from one spot to another has never made since to me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
28 Posts
One thing that needs to change for battery powered equipment to take hold is battery obsolescence. If I buy a battery >whatever< today, I feel replacement batteries should be guaranteed available for 10-15 years, maybe more. I don't want to replace a shed full of tools because I can no longer get batteries for them.

Proprietary batteries are cash cows for every manufacturer. Maybe standardized batteries, or batteries that can easily have internal cells replaced, would be much better for the consumer, and the effort to eliminate gas powered OPE.
The worst, in my opinion, are the companies that produce the same form factor batteries but the connection to the tools are just "different" enough that the batteries aren't interchangeable between brands. Like, DeWalt and Craftsman are owned by the same company and the batteries look pretty similar yet you cannot use a DeWalt battery in a Craftsman tool.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Am with you on that! California is nothing but a burden on the rest of this country.

They do have their own special feel-good laws over there but unfortunately sometimes those laws get adopted at the federal level too.
Partially agree but California is not a burden. They pay in significantly more than they take out from federal funds.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
890 Posts
Everybody take a huge breath. As a long-time California resident, this law doesn't scare me near as much as it seems to scare everyone else in here. There's a key phrase in the law: "...which also could be delayed at the discretion of the state agency." This is a very common piece of language in both Federal and California law, or something like it. It's there specifically to allow space for the tech to catch up but still apply market pressure. The dates in the law are insane. They're deliberately insane. They won't be kept, nor is there really any thought that they will be, except as a sound-bite. This has happened with lots of laws here, including EV mandates. They exist to put market pressure in place.

Basically, it's a way of pushing companies to fill a desirable space. If the tech isn't there, or impossible, no company can fill the need and the date is moved out. That's the plan, whether it's stated or not. But if the tech is possible, some company will attempt to fill what will become a lucrative market if the date is enforced. When the products arrive, the date will be enforced. Yeah, the first year or two or three is sometimes a bit rough. We see this every time there's a jump in vehicle emissions laws, the latest headache being ironed out is the latest round of diesel particulate filters. But...they're being figured out. The ones today have dropped from showstoppers to merely annoying. It'll be the same here.

BTW...25HP was selected precisely because it's where the EPA draws its line. By being less regulated, this group of engines are producing measured exhaust components at many, many times the level of stuff above that line. Two-strokes, in particular, are very messy engines.

California is an economic powerhouse. There's little will here to interrupt that, no matter what you read. This law isn't going to be enforced before it won't threaten that freight train. $3.2T in GDP, $1.3T more than the next state, and $80K in GDP per capita, fourth in productivity in the nation. Small gas engines are a portion of that productivity and they're not going anywhere until there's something viable to replace them. No matter what the salacious headlines read.

(And yes, I own all of the above. 4-stroke gas tools, 2-stroke gas tools, and electric tools. There's nothing today for 5-25 HP tool in emission-free. I don't see it happening for a bit, due to the tech not being there.)

I personally think the law is premature. There's a bit missing before the tech is ready. Battery tech is too heavy in the medium-size tool market. The inclusion of generators, in particular, is weird, given their emergency use and the chicken-and-egg problem of how do you get electricity when there's no electricity? I think that one will be heavily amended before it goes into effect. I'm not panicking thought or making plans to leave because politician promises are worth about as much as the hot air they were spoken with.
Not picking on any sate, but you appear to be OK with these kind of mandates.

In my state, I don't have a choice. So-called "environmentalism" is a religion to many in power and they wield the bully pulpit in any way they can to force their mandates. Nothing that can be done, you can't just leave their church and go somewhere else.

So I'm stuck with things like futzing with my shower heads to undo what some dictatorial government agency tells me are the best for me.

Or modifying my life style (or wallet) to handle immature technology or confiscatory taxes to fund these mandates.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
631 Posts
I hadn’t really thought about it before but electricity is produced and consumed in a rather “local” manner. The fuel for the generators may need to be transported by rail, barge or pipeline but the electricity generated is usually distributed in a smaller area, all by wires. Especially when compared to importing oil from South America, Middle East, Africa or wherever we buy from to keep the US in fuel. Not long ago the US was exporting surplus oil, that has now changed.
So the supply side of electric is probably more efficient than the oil side.
As an individual that works in the field of Emergency Management, I can tell you with definitive fact that electricity by and large is not produced in a local market. In fact their could be a power generation facility in your town and it doesn't supply a single electron for your home.

California purchases power from hundreds of locations including Hoover Dam. They produce power from primarily Hydro, Nuclear, and Natural Gas. But they purchase power from as far away as the East Coast and a bunch from Canada (which has lower carbon standards).

Electric vehicles only make sense in the market en masse if their is point of charging stations that utilize hyper-local generation such as solar and wind at point-of-distribution. POD would be home and business charging stations. The energy delivery systems are in most areas relying on 50 year old infrastructure. The California wildfires are a great example of outdated infrastructure.

I believe they passed a law that all vehicles must be zero-emission by 2035. Unfortunately other states are trying to do similar.
 
  • Like
Reactions: wildbranch2007

·
Registered
4110 tractor, 60" mower deck, 54" snow plow
Joined
·
9 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,040 Posts
As an individual that works in the field of Emergency Management, I can tell you with definitive fact that electricity by and large is not produced in a local market. In fact their could be a power generation facility in your town and it doesn't supply a single electron for your home.

California purchases power from hundreds of locations including Hoover Dam. They produce power from primarily Hydro, Nuclear, and Natural Gas. But they purchase power from as far away as the East Coast and a bunch from Canada (which has lower carbon standards).

Electric vehicles only make sense in the market en masse if their is point of charging stations that utilize hyper-local generation such as solar and wind at point-of-distribution. POD would be home and business charging stations. The energy delivery systems are in most areas relying on 50 year old infrastructure. The California wildfires are a great example of outdated infrastructure.

I believe they passed a law that all vehicles must be zero-emission by 2035. Unfortunately other states are trying to do similar.
The Hoover Dam is “local” to California compared to importing oil from different continents. Electricity isn’t transported tens of thousands of mile was my point.
 

·
Registered
2014 1025R
Joined
·
128 Posts
Not picking on any sate, but you appear to be OK with these kind of mandates.

In my state, I don't have a choice. So-called "environmentalism" is a religion to many in power and they wield the bully pulpit in any way they can to force their mandates. Nothing that can be done, you can't just leave their church and go somewhere else.

So I'm stuck with things like futzing with my shower heads to undo what some dictatorial government agency tells me are the best for me.

Or modifying my life style (or wallet) to handle immature technology or confiscatory taxes to fund these mandates.
Which mandate? Do I believe all government mandates are bad? No, and neither do you. Our government mandates a bunch of things I think we could agree on. Murdering each other is, for instance, a pretty universally agreed upon prohibition. I also don't think and neither do you that any and all mandates are a good idea. My state has a ban on pistol grips on rifles. I think that's more than a little silly and I'll bet you're not far behind.

If we're speaking to this specific mandate...no, as I mentioned before, I think this one isn't the best written of all laws. It's premature and its aims could have been achieved with rules that would be easier to swallow and follow. For me, the jury is still out on when exactly such a thing would be needed. I don't think it's yet.

My point, as I've stated several times, is that the headlines don't tell the whole story. It's probably not the greatest law, but it's also not the law everyone seems to think it is, especially at a first read of a news article.
 
101 - 120 of 200 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top