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New Shop Build Begins (Finally)

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This post has been a long time coming! MattL is finally getting a shop! The short story is for pretty much ever, I've always wanted a dedicated workshop for woodworking and the plan was to build one when we moved to PA in 2017. We were under contract with a builder and then the township, zoning and stormwater management BS pretty much shot that down and we cancelled the contract and started a search for a new home, planning on moving 2ish years after this home. Fast forward almost 4.5 years later and a home search that wasn’t bearing fruit, to December of 2021 and a phone call with a township supervisor on a different topic got derailed to zoning/township policies/etc. and the plan to get the shop built started again.

The shop is going to be a 30’x50’ pole barn with 12’ eave walls and scissor trusses putting the interior center at 14.5’. It will have a concrete floor, be fully insulated, have a 8’x16’ lean-to on the side facing our house, two man doors, one 9 lite under the lean-to, one solid steel at the rear for emergency egress and a single gable end garage door 16’x10’. Power will be a subpanel from the home (125A/220v) and we’re planning on eventually adding solar panels to the roof to supplement the home supply as well as power the home when I’m not using all the energy generated while in the shop.

While the above is very exciting - to say that this process has been an expensive nightmare would be a bit of an understatement. Between misinformation from the township, getting the zoning variance, an overzealous (my opinion) township civil engineer reviewing and approving stormwater plans has been an exercise in frustration. More on those details in a bit, but in short, the ZHB meeting was a 3+ month effort, the permit application was submitted on Tuesday, May 31st, rejected on July 5th (5 weeks) due to alleged stormwater application problems and only now, on Oct, 13th was the “go ahead” received from the township civil engineer. Not all the problems were on the township and their lack of management however the majority of them are and have cost us a small fortune as a result. Mind you this small fortune has been spent on drawings and we haven’t even broke ground yet.

I was going to call the thread - “new shop needs a place” as a play on flyweights thread about his new shop build because I recently purchased a “tool lot” that was basically a well-appointed hobby machine shop from a gentleman who unfortunately for him, had to downsize. The big items include a Precision Matthews PM-727V Mill, a Precision Matthews PM-1236 Lathe, both with DRO’s and an accomplished machinist’s lifetime collection of tooling, a Miller Millermatic 220AC/DC multiprocess welder, a Miller plasma cutter, a Miller Millermatic 211 MIG welder, shop floor press, and a huge assortment of tools/chests to include Snap-On, DeWalt, Milwaukee, Starrett, etc. Essentially it was a deal of a lifetime and one that I couldn’t pass up, so the “new shop” really needs a place at this point as the new shop is all contained in a two car garage attached to the house….. that was already too full with the prior woodshop and limited collection of metal working stuff. A lot of the tools are duplicates of what I’ve already got so I’ll be selling off some of them to help recover the cost of the purchased lot.

Other notable things – the new shop will have a 2 post lift (make & model TBD), all my existing wood working tools and the new machine shop tools as well will be moved in. Fiber will be run for connectivity, there are no current plans for water, however additional conduits will be put in the trench from the house for future expansion, etc. HVAC will be a pair of 18k BTU mini-splits, model is TBD, really depending on cost and availability. (Thanks @Kennyd for that recommendation of two 18k’s). Same with plans for a small loft, there are no plans and I doubt that I’ll get one, however with a 13’ ceiling height about 6’ off the eave walls and 14.5’ in the center, there is some room for a possible loft eventually.

I’ve been chomping at the bit to share this with the GTT group, Kenny has hinted at it a few times publicly but because of what seems like a never ending nightmare of bureaucracy and nonsense and so as to not get my hopes up only to be left with disappointment, this thread being posted has been a long time coming.

In the next few posts I’m going to reserve them for the details as to the what the process was for the zoning, building permit and stormwater and similar. This build will also be documented on my youtube channel youtube.com/makerbreakerfixer and I’ve got a bunch of video already, but haven’t posted it because I didn’t want to start only to be stopped before breaking ground.

It’s with great excitement I can finally say – I’ve got a building permit in hand and construction is beginning in the next few days!!!

Property Product Rectangle Slope Line


Slope Land lot Urban design Parallel Font
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The other update today..... Since it essentially was a derivative of this project - The local township supervisor primary elections were yesterday and the unofficial results are in.....

Percentage of vote:
Katie (Spouse): 63%
Rob (her "teammate") 53%
Dan (the Incumbant): 40%
Bob (the OVERLY concerned neighbor): 27%
Congratulations AND Condolences to Katie!! :)

Now that the primary is over, how many of the 4 that ran go on to general election in November? If "Dan the Incumbent" is still in the running, expect some nasty mailings to go out about your wife and Rob. Even local elected officials hate to lose and I've seen some nasty stuff here.

When you mentioned earlier that she was running for Township Supervisor, I looked up the position on The Google. It looks pretty similar to "Township Trustee" in Ohio except that the Supervisors seem to have more power in PA. It also looks like they get paid a lot better than Ohio Township Trustees whose compensation is set and limited by the State Legislature. Ours is based on Township budget and caps out somewhere around $18k / year. If your wife is planning on trying to keep her office for a while, she could end up with a pretty good state pension when she retires!

I was the "Township Fiscal Officer" for our Township. I had no vote on the Board of Trustees, but I certainly shared my opinions with them at our meetings. I served for 4.5 years - the first six months I was appointed to finish out the term of my predecessor and then I was elected for a 4 year term. My last meeting that I served at was in March of 2020 - it was the last "live meeting" before all the Covid restrictions set in. I got out in the knick of time!! Due to all the Federal money and a bunch of other stuff, the duties of the fiscal officer probably tripled which turned a part time job with part time pay into a full time job with part time pay. Lucky for me, I was done! :)

I wish Katie the best if she's elected in November. I hope she has a thick skin as there will always be someone in the Township that's not happy with her (or the other Supervisors). My time as an elected official is an experience that I'm glad that I had, but not one that I really want to repeat! :)
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It's not a huge payday in our township ~$1800.00/yr I think, so not much to be excited about there.
There are two seats open in Nov, Dan and another person from the other party. Two of the four for Katie's party will be on the ballot (Her and Rob) and two of the three from the other party will be on the ballot, with write in's still available. The general election will likely end up being split by the parties one from each, but nothing is guaranteed. Not sure what Dan is going to do since he didn't get a spot on the ballot and write-in is his only option, he hasn't been the most gracious person thus far, so while I don't have high expectations, hopefully getting voted out in the primaries is enough for him to enjoy what is left on his term and bow out gracefully. I think she'll be ok with the thick skin stuff but we'll see as things progress. Thanks for the well wishes, I'll pass them on.
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Congrats to Katie. 👍
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Matt, Is a town supervisor the same as a county council person? You know here in Montgomery County, MD. a council person gets 156K a year. And there's nine of them. What do they do here? You know just make things worst. lol
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Matt, Is a town supervisor the same as a county council person? You know here in Montgomery County, MD. a council person gets 156K a year. And there's nine of them. What do they do here? You know just make things worst. lol
Kinda like mayor... but with a multiple personality of 5 people..
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Kinda like mayor... but with a multiple personality DISORDERS of 5 people..
FIFY
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That's what I meant to say, but was deep in a Pinochle game that was HEATED!

So today's update: Met with an epoxy floor company...... Holy high pressure time share sales tactics. It was almost painfully apparent that was the plan and all the tricks were employed to entice a sale.... write in red a big number (22k, I kid you not...) and then say, I'm not allowed to do this, but since they haven't offered you any deals on the phone I can just give you the rock bottom price.... of 18,177 or some other random, looks like it's been calculated to be precise....
Me: "Ok thanks, I've got two more companies coming later this week, I'll be in touch, but that's well outside of what I was expecting, so it's unlikely I'll be in touch..... " Him: "What were you expecting?"
Me "10-12k"
Him: makes phone call while complementing the concrete and building to his "boss" for the third time.... "Can we meet in the middle to the boss"
Him: comes back with $14,376.
Me: Still have the two other companies and you're still way out of my price point. Do you have a card, who knows, what they come back with.
[shorted for what should be obvious - more phone calls, more compliments, iI' going to get in to trouble, did I do something wrong, etc....]
Him: [5 min later....] I can get to 11k.
Me: Still going to get the quotes from the two other companies, thanks.
Him: [fakes chest pain while picking up a 10lb pelican case with color samples in it, did I mention he has 4 kids and I'm guessing is 25? then blames it on a heart surgery 6 years ago, yet he has a bad memory from getting hit by car when he was 18.......] blah blah...
Me: I've got a meeting in 4 minutes, you got that card?

So I was curious about the cost of getting a proper epoxy floor done and figured it would be 4-6sq/ft. Well they started at $14.66sq/ft and ended at an unbelievable deal of basically half or $7.33sq/ft. As a consumer if you're willing to let me hand over AT LEAST 2x more than you'll take to do the same job, haven't you realized that moment the the price goes down THAT MUCH I've done the math and if you're willing to literally royally screw me over, I'm NEVER going to do business with your company, no matter how unbelievable the deal has become. All that new lower number is showing me is how bad you tried to screw me over. Similar tactics to car sales, however (with the exception of current supply/demand/politics/etc.) they are usually at MSRP with room that may or may not be able to move down based on dealer volume, incentives, holdbacks, etc. This on the other hand (and they are using the same product as the epoxy-coat previously recommended in this thread) that would cost me at retail about 2500 in materials. Factor in two days labor for two guys being about 1k, tools/consumables 500, it's a 4k cost job. 8k would be a mostly reasonable price with a floor of 6500 to make the sale, but..... 22k, GTT doesn't allow the words for that kind of people.

I'll be doing the "better" option from epoxy-coat.com which will be 1834.90 delivered. Look at that - saved over 20k on this part of the project.... :rolleyes:
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Total scum!!!. Plenty of similar stories in my neck of the woods after Hurricane Ida. I know many people who were screwed over……. All different type of trades. Had Shady guys come in from all over.

BTW, should only take you 3 half days for DIY. Etch, 1st coat, 2nd coat. I did my shop and it was not a big job at all. It’s actually easy work and rewarding to see the finished product!!

Just don’t paint yourself into a corner


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^ +1
Not that hard - and I hate painting
If you doit yourself, don't forget the grit
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Glad to see things are moving again. As for that quote, OMG, such a scum bag. o_O
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You should just have a GTT party come and do it for a specific X hamburgers and beers per square foot. 😁
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@Jimmy Walker Yea, that'll work, I'll have all the cigar smoking GTT members over.... They'll smoke my cigars, drink the lemonade or other beverages of their choice in lawn chairs watching me work.

They'll be as helpful as Penny.... Sunbathing. (This is today at day camp...)



I've got a buddy near by who apparently did his own, so I'll find an excuse to go to his place and see his work and if I like it, I'll ask him to come help. :p
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That's what I meant to say, but was deep in a Pinochle game that was HEATED!

So today's update: Met with an epoxy floor company...... Holy high pressure time share sales tactics. It was almost painfully apparent that was the plan and all the tricks were employed to entice a sale.... write in red a big number (22k, I kid you not...) and then say, I'm not allowed to do this, but since they haven't offered you any deals on the phone I can just give you the rock bottom price.... of 18,177 or some other random, looks like it's been calculated to be precise....
Me: "Ok thanks, I've got two more companies coming later this week, I'll be in touch, but that's well outside of what I was expecting, so it's unlikely I'll be in touch..... " Him: "What were you expecting?"
Me "10-12k"
Him: makes phone call while complementing the concrete and building to his "boss" for the third time.... "Can we meet in the middle to the boss"
Him: comes back with $14,376.
Me: Still have the two other companies and you're still way out of my price point. Do you have a card, who knows, what they come back with.
[shorted for what should be obvious - more phone calls, more compliments, iI' going to get in to trouble, did I do something wrong, etc....]
Him: [5 min later....] I can get to 11k.
Me: Still going to get the quotes from the two other companies, thanks.
Him: [fakes chest pain while picking up a 10lb pelican case with color samples in it, did I mention he has 4 kids and I'm guessing is 25? then blames it on a heart surgery 6 years ago, yet he has a bad memory from getting hit by car when he was 18.......] blah blah...
Me: I've got a meeting in 4 minutes, you got that card?

So I was curious about the cost of getting a proper epoxy floor done and figured it would be 4-6sq/ft. Well they started at $14.66sq/ft and ended at an unbelievable deal of basically half or $7.33sq/ft. As a consumer if you're willing to let me hand over AT LEAST 2x more than you'll take to do the same job, haven't you realized that moment the the price goes down THAT MUCH I've done the math and if you're willing to literally royally screw me over, I'm NEVER going to do business with your company, no matter how unbelievable the deal has become. All that new lower number is showing me is how bad you tried to screw me over. Similar tactics to car sales, however (with the exception of current supply/demand/politics/etc.) they are usually at MSRP with room that may or may not be able to move down based on dealer volume, incentives, holdbacks, etc. This on the other hand (and they are using the same product as the epoxy-coat previously recommended in this thread) that would cost me at retail about 2500 in materials. Factor in two days labor for two guys being about 1k, tools/consumables 500, it's a 4k cost job. 8k would be a mostly reasonable price with a floor of 6500 to make the sale, but..... 22k, GTT doesn't allow the words for that kind of people.

I'll be doing the "better" option from epoxy-coat.com which will be 1834.90 delivered. Look at that - saved over 20k on this part of the project.... :rolleyes:
We are doing an aircraft hangar with a 5 part system that will stand up to aviation fuels. They grind/prep the floors with 30” grinders, fill joints, etc. for 13,822 sf, it’s a 6 day job with a crew of 4. Total cost per SF is $6.45. That’s paying travel costs as well.

For a densifier that we typically use in service shops that runs about $1.50/SF.
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We are doing an aircraft hangar with a 5 part system that will stand up to aviation fuels. They grind/prep the floors with 30” grinders, fill joints, etc. for 13,822 sf, it’s a 6 day job with a crew of 4. Total cost per SF is $6.45. That’s paying travel costs as well.

For a densifier that we typically use in service shops that runs about $1.50/SF.
That's inline with what I was figuring it would cost, I was hoping I was wrong and the work was even cheaper so I could justify the cost of it over time saved... but at this point, I'll happily trade the time for cost savings.

Absolute highway robery was this company.

Epoxy Floor Experts, near Hamburg, PA... - is the company - I'd like to guess they do good work, but I'll never find out for what they tried to charge - and the creepy sales tactics.
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That's inline with what I was figuring it would cost, I was hoping I was wrong and the work was even cheaper so I could justify the cost of it over time saved... but at this point, I'll happily trade the time for cost savings.

Absolute highway robery was this company.

Epoxy Floor Experts, near Hamburg, PA... - is the company - I'd like to guess they do good work, but I'll never find out for what they tried to charge - and the creepy sales tactics.
Maybe you could get a floor grinder attachment for your 1025!
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Maybe you could get a floor grinder attachment for your 1025!
Titan or Vevor will sell him one... 🤣
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The interior framing was completed (mostly...... more on that in a bit...) today I cut the main conduit inside the building to height, framed out the support structure for the sub panel and installed the panel. The bonus work for today was learning that I need 1/2 NM cable clamps, I've got 3/4" on hand but got the building ground copper run and attached to the two ground rods (Not surprisingly @Kennyd Was right - only needed one ground rod, but its not going to hurt...) but need that 1/2" clamp to finish that. Framed out and mounted the 2 gang box for the welder outlet (6-50R) and started with the 6/2 wire but I don't have the correct staples for wire that large so finishing that rough in is on hold. Also moved the camera since it was in the way of the new panel.

Yep, it's upside down, it's rated to be installed main breaker down for bottom feed applications. Top most breaker is ~75" off the ground below the NEC max of 79". Once the walls are up it'll be flush with the wall surface.

The grading for the driveway/approach/stone base will start and likely finish tomorrow. Friday the scissor lift is delivered for the long weekend to complete the rough-in electric work - so yup, I've got a deadline, since the rough-in inspection is scheduled for Tuesday morning.

A few more progress pics... and the barn has a work bench now too.




Interior framing notes: Well the builder sent a new to them crew out to do the work, and didn't send them with plans after they apparently asked for them for several days. They started work without consulting me and assuming... that it was fiberglas batts and the interior framing was 22" on center. Figuring that they knew what they were doing left them alone as they started at the bottom, well when I asked about the top and we went over the plans they had to take the top rail down and move it. It doesn't really impact anything after it was fixed. But seriously, how as a builder to send a crew to "do interior framing" that you've never worked with before and you don't send them the plans. WTF. They also forgot to cut the 2x4s that are infront of the first window. Easy to fix, but I shouldn't have to.

Edit2: Thanks GTT member who took my call when asking about the specifics on the ground rods and clamps.
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You may want to backer rod (or blue can spray foam) you window and doors and then caulk the jambs to the frame. This will encourage and water to not come further in the building when finished.
I like the burglar bars!
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So apparently the motivation wasn't over. The lady is at the township for a BoS meeting (work session, not open public comment, but public is welcome to attend) so work must continue.

After looking at the pictures too many times I was concerned there wouldn't be sufficient space on the left of the panel for the gable wall board. Pulled out the panel cover and measured. Got about 1/2" gap that will work just fine. Panel door will open the other way and easily exceeds the 90° rule.
Wood Building Electrical wiring Hardwood Gas


Then it was.... why not see what happens when I try to get the pull cord through the 1" conduit (planning on using it for data/fiber) that the previous owner put in... I'd normally say , how thoughtful, however this CLOWN used two LB's on the in ceiling 80' run that not only are covered by drywall but one is behind wall mount cabinets and drywall. Can't fix stupid, but I digress. Pulled out the husky "5HP.....🤣" shop vac that's been sitting in the rain on the patio for two years... filter was an absolute mess but managed to get it off and low and behold it ran just fine. Used that and a plastic bag tied to the end of the pull string to fish it through. It was about 20 trips back and forth to free it up, let it pull, etc. But it actually made it through. But... why stop there. (Truth be told, I've been both dreading and anxiously awaiting this part of the project.) Might as well try and get the custom 6 stand mm fiber pulled through (if it'll actually pull through the LB's...). Excited because IT and networking is my full time gig and it's rare that I'm EVER hands on anymore, and while running cable isn't exactly glamorous (actually its my least favorite thing), it's my house and my barn and custom fiber and yeeeeaaaa, I'm excited to get it wired up. A loop is made in the pull string (so additional pull string pulls through at the same time) and the pulling begins. Well about 15 trips back and forth to unroll the cable off the spool and un jam it and amazingly the 3/4" pull hook pulled pretty good through several 90° sweeps and the two LB's of the 1" conduit. Positive is that is encouraging for the 1awg cable pull (2" conduit) and two, the rest of the data conduit is 1.5" and I'd guess that's going to be on the low side of the easy scale.

Pics... and yea, it was pitch black dark while finishing up, but its was all feel and it's not like I can see in the conduit.

Outside: pulling side.
Wood Building material Tradesman Beam Gas


Inside: Feed side. It's the far cable basically pointed down with the pull cord on the smaller conduit. The other cables are currently what's running the patio network and will be getting removed this weekend when pulling the power through.
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Do you have enough clear width in front of the panel, or will your inspector care?

I ask because it looks close to correct, but a lot easier to deal with now than afterwire and foam.
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