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On line scam journey - Don't be me

11K views 44 replies 28 participants last post by  falcon67 
#1 · (Edited)
Be aware of online scams because sometimes you get to be an example to others of what not to do.

This is one of those times. This might be a bit long. Go get some popcorn.

I’ve been on GTT for 5 months now, joining 1 month before getting my 1025R. One of the things I did not get with the purchase was a set of pallet forks and a frame. Main reason being that I was given a set of Rankin clamp-on bucket forks. For various reasons I have decided I want to go with pallet forks and a frame instead (and sell the Rankin's eventually).

So I posted in the Wanted to Buy forum that I…well…wanted to buy a frame and forks, 42” and of course the JDQA system for attaching to my H120 loader.

I titled the post” 42" Pallet Forks and frame”

A day or so later I got a notice that “Ronald001” (I’m using quotes only the first time I use someone’s “name” here) has invited me to a conversation about the forks.

Ronald001:
"Email steve in Ashland he has a 42" Pallet Forks and frame for sale. Here's his email stevemathew660@gmail.com"

So I emailed “Steve Matthew”.

A few red flags in hindsight here:
  • A private conversation, outside of the forum, and away from other people’s watchful eyes.
  • Slightly wrong grammar. “he has a 42” Pallet Forks and frame for sale." instead of “he has a set of 42” pallet forks and a frame for sale.” Note that what Ronald wrote was exactly what I had titled (Pallet Forks is capitalized and frame is not). “steve” is not capitalized either.
In hindsight as well, had I used google to search for the text of Ronald’s conversation I would have see that the same text, verbatim, had been used several other sites and "he" has been flagged as a scammer on some (but not all) of the forums.

I’m north of Seattle and had assumed that “Ashland” was Ashland, Oregon. Later, in emailing “Steve” he’s supposedly in Ashland, Virginia. I figured in my mind that Ashland, Oregon was close enough to drive if necessary.

I was eager for a good deal and was away from my computer for what followed. Both of which were mistakes on my part.

I was spending the next two days evaluating the condition of school buildings in Seattle, so all I could do is see photos and send emails via my phone. I also was always on the move and had to steal moments away from work to communicate with Steve. Again, a private conversation away from knowledgeable and helpful watching eyes.

I sent Steve the same message as in the Wanted To Buy forum, plus “Ronald said you have 42" forks and a frame for sale. I'm wondering what you have for sale, what you'd like to get for it, and what would be the best (most cost efficient) way to get them from you to me. I'm about an hour north of Seattle and there's a nearby Fastenal.”

He said he did have a set of 42” pallet forks that he was willing to sell to me for $350, including shipping. This seemed reasonable to me for a used set. I wasn’t looking for new, just good, and not a project.

I won’t bore you with the back and forth but Steve wasn’t eager to sell and seemed a bit grumpy. Ronald was a bit more pushy, making sure I knew that Steve was an honest man. And honestly, my eagerness was helping a bit too much. The first picture Steve sent was using a SSQA system. He got offended when I pointed out it would not work on my H120, reminding me that he has been working with tractors a long time. I pointed out a couple of more times that he, respectfully, was wrong. Finally he sent a picture of a Titan forks and frame set with the JDQA system. Success! Exactly what I was wanting and a little better than I had hoped. He kept blaming delays in communication on his office manager.

Again, doing all this from the tiny screen on my phone I agreed to the deal and I asked about Paypal or Zelle.

He wrote:
“I think I 'll prefer Zelle so as to get it shipp fast without no form of delay. But i am not set up with zelle but my secretary set up with that. Here is the Zelle to pay to.
robert.cobarrubias44@gmail.com

Let me know once you done with payment i ll send you the tracking number and relevant shipping information once your payment is confirm.”

We agreed to use Zelle for sending funds. My wife has used Zelle for sending money to relatives. This was my first time with it. He got pushy about receiving the money, wanting to know when it was sent. I was working through the process and asked him for the recipient name, phone number, and email. He wrote again:

“Okay. Sorry about that but my secretary is not available to answer quickly. You can just make the payment here now.
briandcarterforever69@gmail.com
Brianna Holes.”

I wrote back that Zelle was requiring a phone number too. So he replied:

“Here is the number +1 (859) 621-9880
Name Brianna Hiles.”

He even provided what he said was his address: "This is my address. 304 South Center Street Ashland Virginia. " I'm sure it's a lie too.

This is going way long, so I’ll wrap it up. I sent the money via Zelle. I never saw the forks. Steve and Ronald did keep up the charade for a few days even though the money was irretrievably in their hands. Then radio silence.

Ronald001 did respond to someone else here on GTT needing a Gator fender and Kylew spotted it in the Wanted to Buy forum and made a comment about it looking shady. I messaged him about my predicament and he agreed that it looked really shady because:
  • Ronald’s response directed you to someone off site who had exactly what was requested.
  • Ronald had a very low posting count (003 at the time, I think)
I went to every step in the way to file dispute/loss forms. No joy so far. I sent a few "honor shaming" emails to Ronald and Steve. Still nothing.

A couple of items that hopefully help you not be a part of something like this:
  • Zelle has no protections. And, to be absolutely clear and fair to them, they are absolutely clear about this. A Zelle transaction is virtual cash. Imagine handing someone a stack of cash. That is what it is. There is no recourse. Once it leaves your hand, and you confirm multiple times it’s ok and that you know who you’re sending it to (which of course I clicked “yes”) it’s gone. No recourse, no recall, no protection.
  • The phone number was a real number, answered by a woman who was not interested in talking to me or about Steve.
  • The names Steve was giving me as the recipient was not him. It was his secretary, and it changed three times.
  • My bank has a relationship with Zelle as their facilitator for online fund transfer. After I realized I was scammed, I talked with them and they said Zelle is a contractor and not part of the bank. So I don’t have protection from online fraud, nor help from their online fraud department.
  • Zelle is clear that they’re just the facilitator. If you say it’s ok to send, that’s all the approval they need to send the money. I filed a fraud claim with them anyway. 30 days later, no response.
  • The money went through Zelle to another bank. That bank then, as I understand it, routed it to a bank that puts the money straight into debit/gift cards. The money is gone, they have no interest in assistance.
  • The US Government does have a department for investigating internet fraud. I filed a report and a form with them. 30 days later, no response.
  • To be clear ONCE THE MONEY IS GONE, IT’S GONE. THERE IS NO DISPUTE TO RESOLVE AS YOU’VE GIVEN THE OK TO SEND IT. This isn’t like a credit or debit card purchase where you have some protections. I sent the money in good faith that once received they would send the forks. Just like if they had sent the forks prior to payment they would have done so in good faith that I would pay.
I have searched on the Internet for his opening text and found more under Ronald001 and even a couple under Ronald002. I’ve emailed their site admins to let them know. Some appreciate it, some don’t.

I know this has been a long read. I haven’t hidden much. If you have questions about any of this, please ask in a reply and I’ll respond publicly as much as I can (or via conversation if you’d like).

I was lazy and eager and was not critical enough, overlooking many red flags for my convenience. That does not absolve Ronald, Steve, or Brianna of being criminals.

Hopefully, this all helps someone else from going down the same path.

Bpop
 
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#2 ·
Thanks for sharing Brian. I’m sorry you lost your money.
 
#3 ·
What IP addresses do your emails show? Are they spoofed? You might be able to get there Internet service shutdown. I wouldn't recommend Google shutting down their gmail accounts as they will just make new ones and be harder to track.

Keep harassing the Feds about this, politely, but firmly. The squeaky wheel. Does your State have an Internet Fraud Dept.? You might want to check. They might have better luck than the Feds. Either way, I'm sorry to agree with you, your money is long gone. Even if they caught the guys tomorrow and they were to make restitution you might get your money back by the dollar over the next 10 years.
 
#4 ·
Brian, Thanks for the update. It's a shame that hard working, trusting and honest people are being victimized by those who are expert at various schemes and scams.
 
#5 ·
That really sucks. It has always seemed that we were kind of immune to that stuff on GTT.
I sell allot of calves on Craigslist, and I have to deal with all the scammers. I use to get a scammer calling once in a while, now probably 80% of the replies are scammers.
If I were you, I would forget about it and move on. Every minute that you spend from now on is just costing you more time and money. Get yourself a better, brand spanking new, set of forks and put it in your rear view mirror
 
#6 ·
Agreed. I'm posting here not to be a victim or martyr (or punching bag). Just trying to help out. I know the money's gone. I'll continue to look for bargains, just perhaps with a bit more reserve.
 
#7 ·
Honest people selling things are becoming a rare bird nowadays. I was on Facebook Marketplace a couple of days ago and found a tractor for an unbelievable deal. I did a search and that tractor was all over marketplace same picture and same dealer's name but each had a different vin number and the dealers address was in a different city. More than 300 postings. Disgusting. If I do buy something that has to be shipped I'll only use Paypal with a credit card.
Ron
P.S No I'm not the same Ron.
 
#8 ·
Here is what's at the street address he gave you in Virginia. It's in the center of the block of the row buildings on the right.
Residential area Property Neighbourhood Home House
 
#9 · (Edited)
Here is what's at the street address he gave you in Virginia. It's in the center of the block of the row buildings on the right. View attachment 763712
Yep. He gave that address several days after the money was already gone. Why he kept the charade going I don't know.
 
#10 ·
@bpop Thanks for sharing your experience. Most of us like to think that we're immune to making mistakes, but it happens a lot. If it didn't spammers would go away. Appreciate the knowledge as I would think here on GTT we would be safer than other areas given the great group of folks here, but that's not necessarily true as it only takes one.
Thanks again for sharing.
 
#12 ·
I have never bought any thing off e-bay and only a couple of things off of Craigslist. The Craigslist's deals were face to face and I see the merchandise and hand over the cash. Most of my online shopping is through Amazon or other well known vendors. I am kind of a skeptic when it comes to a lot of this stuff.

Sorry this happened and thanks for sharing so we all can learn.
 
#15 ·
I can't like that one but as I'm pretty familiar with Ashland Va. here are some possible tips. Ashland is a small town in Hanover county VA but both the town and Hanover County have law enforcement. I would file complaints with them on the off chance the crooks actually used their own addess. Probably didn't but it's only a couple of phone calls. Center Street actually exists and is a real address so probably the person was in some way familiar with Ashland. That doesn't mean they are still there, just that at some point they had a reason to pick that address. It's both a college town and within easy commuting distance of Richmond so there are a fair number of transients who come and go.

If you can find out which bank paid the money on the receiving end, it's entirely possible the police could then find the recipient(s). I've never used Zelle but there is a trail somewhere.

Since it involves the banking system and interstate commerce either the FDIC or the FBI or both could have jurisdiction if they chose to get involved. They probably won't because there are bigger fish to fry, but I'd file a complaint just in case.

Sorry you got burned but thank you for taking the time to warn others. That's a stand up attitude and I salute you.

Treefarmer
 
#17 ·
I can't like that one but as I'm pretty familiar with Ashland Va. here are some possible tips. Ashland is a small town in Hanover county VA but both the town and Hanover County have law enforcement. I would file complaints with them on the off chance the crooks actually used their own addess. Probably didn't but it's only a couple of phone calls. Center Street actually exists and is a real address so probably the person was in some way familiar with Ashland. That doesn't mean they are still there, just that at some point they had a reason to pick that address. It's both a college town and within easy commuting distance of Richmond so there are a fair number of transients who come and go.

If you can find out which bank paid the money on the receiving end, it's entirely possible the police could then find the recipient(s). I've never used Zelle but there is a trail somewhere.

Since it involves the banking system and interstate commerce either the FDIC or the FBI or both could have jurisdiction if they chose to get involved. They probably won't because there are bigger fish to fry, but I'd file a complaint just in case.

Sorry you got burned but thank you for taking the time to warn others. That's a stand up attitude and I salute you.

Treefarmer
Credit where credit is due. Kylew suggested I do it. I just followed through.

Interesting thought on reaching out to the local LEO's. As noted above, I've focused on leaving this all behind but I might reach out to them this weekend. The phone number Steve gave did have a girl answering (she actually called me back here as a missed call). Wasn't very chatty though. :)
 
#18 ·
I hate it for you but you learned a valuable lesson and made it more valuable by sharing it to help others. Like @Herminator said, I salute you. Still sorry you lost your money. I think @Treefarmer offered some good advice if you have the opportunity, I'd try what he recommended, it can't make it any worse.

Edit: I see you did that, good luck.
 
#19 ·
Fortunately you only got taken for a few hundred bucks. While painful, it could have been a LOT worse.

I do appreciate your posting the details of your experience. It's a good reminder to stay on our toes.
 
#21 ·
I have never sold anything on Craigslist but have given things away that I hated to throw out. I don’t think I had to list my phone, I just gave it out if I got an email on the item. I figured out if you want to sell something on Craigslist sell it for free.;)
 
#26 · (Edited)
Here are screenshots of two scammers that I received conversations from about something I wanted to buy on GTT. Note this is the first post for both.

763760

763761
 
#27 ·
#28 ·
So sorry to hear this, and Thanks for letting us know .
 
#35 ·
The scammers (thieves actually) hang out on the ham radio site qrz.com looking in the want to buy section, members have been getting scammed there for years in spite of warnings. Typically the thief insists on using PayPal Friends and Family which has no fraud protection.
 
#36 ·
I would definitely report this information to the law enforcement in the Virginia town where the address was provided. Many of these thieving scum get lazy and use the same information over and over. If the municipality where the address is located has a small law enforcement agency, it might be advised to also contact the county or parish or other law enforcement agency in that area who may have the resources to have a full time financial fraud investigator. It can't hurt to ask.

Also, the thieves have to have links to a legitimate bank account to receive the Zelle payment and every bank transfer of funds leaves a trail. I wouldn't be a bit surprised that the people involved have ties to the Virginia town. People use what they know. There is a reason for the selection of that Virginia town, etc. I doubt very much it was random.

There is a sad truth to these types of fraud which everyone needs to be aware of. First, the majority of the thefts and scams are rarely reported beyond an initial complaint to the financial institution. When people don't get any response to their complaints which resolves anything, most simply move along.

Also, most people who are victims of all types of fraud are reluctant to let others know because of the potential embarrassment, etc. Some older people are concerned their families will use this as a reason to gain control of their resources to "protect them" from others and sadly, in some cases, this is when the real stealing from the victim begins from those who claim to be "watching out for them."

Another sad reality is that over 70% of people who are victimized in a financial fraud will be victimized yet again during their lifetime in another financial fraud. There is something in one's personality which is attracted to "the really great deal" and this is precisely what the scammers play upon. In fact, there are lists of reported victims which are sold to scammers, because they often tend to fall for this type of fraudulent activity again, at an alarming rate.

Those who exploit the vulnerability of others sell this information to one another, so those who have been victimized often are contacted soon after the first theft, by the same or other scum in another attempt to defraud them, so be alert. Often, this is done by the scammers posing as "Recovery Agents" or even as Law enforcement, attempting to "recover previously stolen funds". Now they are exploiting the desire for revenge and this is one manner in how the 70% of those victimized are taken yet again.

Just as we are talking about this on this forum, there will be someone searching for a discussion about being a victim of financial fraud and their online information will be noted by those who conduct this type of nefarious activity. It's a jungle out there.

When you use Zelle and any of the other "nearly instant methods" of electronic funds payments like Venmo and others and send someone money, it's in their account within minutes and in some cases, seconds. It's the electronic equivalent of handing someone cash from a security standpoint. Once the funds have been handed off, they are gone. Such services are usually pretty clear that their money transfer method provides no recourse or recovery and should only be used with those people you know well and trust.

Perhaps there should be a minimum number of posts on GTT required before they can post in the Swap meet or even Conversation with someone. I will say I have had three GTT members just in the last few months, with very low post counts (in fact 0 posts with at least one member) send me conversations and end up buying items from me. Maybe it should be a minimum length of time as a GTT member before being able to post in the Swap meet section. I will leave that to the brain trust who knows far more about the system operations than I ever care to.

Bottom line is be vigilant and when it looks too good to be true, well, it usually is. And don't let one's desire for vengeance turn them into a victim, yet again.
 
#37 ·
Since we are talking about scammers, I thought I would post another scam trick that is the first I have ever heard of. About 3 months ago, I was looking for a Milwaukee hedge trimmer and a google search turned up one for $99 complete with battery. Well, that should have been a clue right there as that was considerably cheaper than anywhere else. The web site was mostly womens clothing, which was another suspicion. Well, I went ahead and ordered it using PayPal for payment as requested. A couple of weeks went by and I received a notice from PayPal that it was shipped with a certain UPS tracking number, which tracking showed delivery. No package and my security camera had no record of anyone being here at that time. The info from the tracking number did show dely to someone in the town nearby with the same zip code, but a different shipper, so I tracked them down, thinking it was a mis-dellivery, but they did not know anything about this. I even talked to the local UPS driver. So, I filed a loss claim with UPS, which they denied as was expected, so I then contacted PayPal. After a few days, they refunded my money, which really surprised me. Then I discovered that the web site had been taken down, so it obviously was only used as the base for the scam. I don't think the scammer was expecting someone to work on getting their money refunded as hard as I did, but they did not know who they were dealing with.

The point here is, this appears to be a new scam, using what appears to be a valid web site, so be on the lookout. The entire web transaction was exactly as you would expect. There were no flags in the processing of the order. That takes a lot of effort to set up a web site complete with order handling. I am an old retired guy that has set up a number of web sites, but a site with order handling is beyond my capability. Also, it requires a lot more resources than a simple web site. It is getting pretty scary, when they can do this. How can we trust any company on the internet anymore. On-line shopping has exploded and someone with the capability of creating fake web sites like this is pretty scary.

Dave
 
#38 ·
A normal smaller town police dept isn't prepared to deal with online scams. These investigations can get big and complicated fast. That's why many states and the Feds do a lot of it. Many scammers aren't just a couple guys trying to do a quick hustle for a few hundred bucks. It's normally like a small business of interconnected people, more like the mafia of scammers. Usually it's international. The days of just being able to chase IP addresses is long gone.

Part of the game is doing smaller scams for under $1K. It attracts less attention from law enforcement as it's not a huge loss. This is made up in volume by the scammers.
 
#39 ·
OP - Thanks for sharing, good luck with your perseverance in at least making the poo heads life a bit uneasy. I doubt they are even stateside, though.

A few comments to help everyone protect themselves from this and a suggestion for the site as a community sounding board....

1) When transactioning on FB/CL/Want/sell on forums, check the users profile for other activity on the site/interactions. Are they real? Do they have an interest in the topic?
2) My inlaws were scammed with the "we'll send you a [fraudulent] check too big just send us a refund for the difference" - My wife asked my opinion before and I said it was 100% fraud. We'll the MIL response "But they're really nice, they can't be fraud.". She lost several hundred dollars, had a returned check fee from her bank from depositing a fraudulent check and was suprised because they were so nice.
3) Red flags: Its not uncommon to have a red flag due to inexperience in selling/buying over the various virtual marketplaces. If there's a single red flag, do some googling of user name, phone numbers, emails, etc. See if there are more red flags. A community like this (and I only recently started posting regularly) has many known members and active administrators who are (not liable) interested in the success of the community, a DM/PM can't hurt if there's a red flag. If there's two or more red flags, trust your gut.
4) Excuses/paying to other parties/etc. The more complicated the deal becomes (even though they are nice) are all the red flags.
5a) Payment: Never send checks - the routing number/account number is on the bottom of the check and is basically a free pass to your checking account.
5b) Payment: Use things like PayPal when there are buyer protections - PayPal cash has no buyer protections (Cause in theory you're sending a "friend" cash.) I personally can't stand PayPal and their "policies" but as mentioned earlier its an extra level of protection. My website (Shopify platorm) for my side hustle accepts CC's directly, Amazon, Amazon pay, Google pay, and PayPal. PayPal is 50% the payment types (Cc direct is the other 50%) which I'm guessing/assuming is because people are skeptical of tiny businesses that's arn't a "trusted" BB/Amazon store. I do the same thing with PayPal, and while I hate paying the PayPal fee's as a merchant, I get it.
5c) Credit Cards/Debit cards: Use a credit card whenever possible for online purchases, 99% of credit cards have excellent fraud defense/protections. - Avoid using debit cards/Check cards - their fraud protections are limited and are tied to cash on hand, not "credit" which if emptied/exploited can take a long time to recover potentially impacting the ability to pay obligations (tractor/mortgage/rent payments?) from that account.

Finally.. Admins/community- What are you thoughts on a "Liability Free, fraud check thread" thread Where if someone in the GTT community is considering a private purchace/transaction for anthing - post in there to see if there are flags/prior experiences with that website/seller/etc. It could be tough though, since we're all always looking for some new "toy" and by posting the item/seller, there could potentially be adding competition for the same item - the whole integrity thing comes in to play, but this is a public forum and a free market.
 
#40 ·
The worst part is the forks are not much more on Amazon. I have bought and sold a lot of stuff on forums. Never had a problem. But I only deal with people I see on them all the time with high post counts. I bought a shop manual on here from a member we see all the time in the MCUT thread. It went smooth as I expected it would. I have bought and sold a lot of stuff on the Corvette forum. Again only people I see all the time and have high post counts. Never 3rd party. It has always gone as expected. It works as long as you look for the signs of scams. The other red flag for me would have been that can only be shipped by freight. Anyone who is not a regular freight coustomer would pay more than that just for freight all the way across the country. Titan ships every day and gets like 80% or more discount. The best you will do online is 60%. That's what the freight company gets and the 3rd party getting that rate will mark it up some. That's going to be about a $300 minimum. Then add residential delivery and lift gate if needed and you are over $400. I am a driver in that industry and I see the charges. That's why most people list something like that as local pick up only. The freight is more than it's worth. I can get the freight cheap if I arrange it with my employer but most people can't.
 
#42 ·
I volunteer as an APPEALS ADMIN for one of the biggest gaming sites online, and have been doing it for 5-6 years now.
Sadly, I deal with people being scammed on a daily basis and while it is great advice to contact law enforcement, and to look at / check IP addresses (when ever thats possible) the truth is, law enforcement really can not help you at all. Also, there is an unlimited number of ways to mask your IP, with proxy servers, VPNs and virtual machines so, even if you could find a rock solid IP, you will find most are coming from out of the country and as such, there is no jurisdiction for the US to go after them.

There are people that have been playing this game for way longer than you might imagine and it is definitely organized. Im sorry you lost the money in your transaction but in the grand scheme of things, it could have been a lot worse.

Hopefully your story will help people realize that as much as we all want to be among friends here, sadly there are some that wait for the opportunity to screw you over.
 
#43 ·
I like SB's idea, that a new member can't PM any one, OR post in "swap meet" until they have xx posts AND have been a member xx days.
This will at least stop a scammer from joining and instantly trying to scam a member.
 
#44 · (Edited)
I was saddened to hear about the OP getting scammed here of all places because I think this site is very clean. It's why I enjoy reading the posts here. I have read good believable advice that has helped me.

Here's a similar but slightly different situation still on the theme of internet scammers.
I have been in the market for a ♂ to live in my house and drive my JD, so I have been frequenting sites where they advertise themselves since I am a very decerning ♀.
I can tell you it seems like around 60% of the profiles are scammers even on the very best sites.
As the OP said, the wording of the advert and the bad English and grammar in the reply were indicators that he should have taken more notice of and I agree with that sentiment entirely.
As also mentioned, it's important to see the advertised goods, so do I, but if it always seems like there is an excuse why the webcam, video or phone camera doesn't work, then that is a dead giveaway that the advertised item is not genuine.
So yes, real-time face to face to see what you are interested in is definitely the best way.
The internet is good for some things but not all.
Please note I'm not here looking for my forever ♂ . I simply enjoy spending a few valuable moments reading about the machinery that I favour.
 
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