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One Series Tractors are Powerful........ More than Less

17K views 53 replies 22 participants last post by  BRIAN WC 
#1 ·
It still amazes me the power that diesel engine makes. With the last sample blast of early winter this week I got the 1023E out for some exercise in the driveway. With drifts hard packed and over 3 feet high, it handled it no problem. I had changed the snowblower speed, exchanging the 40 tooth sprocket for a 36 tooth and shortened the chain. It definitely made chain removal & lubrication easier by adding a master link. That sprocket change speed up the blower by 10%. It don't sound like much but it did throw that heavy hard pack and ice farther into the yard. Diesel power was undaunted at all speeds with the change. Tractor's diesel power and torque more than handled the 10% speed up. I can only see lesser dense and more normal fluffier snow being thrown even farther. The hard pack heavy snow was a good test for the sprocket change.
 
#2 ·
Yes diesel power can be awesome. A couple years back, while my 1 series was at the dealer, we had a heavy 12" snow fall. I asked a friend up the road if he could plow my driveway when he had time. He tossed me the keys to his cabbed Kubota L something. It's in the ballpark of 60hp with at least a 72" front mounted blade. It had no trouble with 12" of heavy snow at idle. 1500rpm! Diesel power[emoji1360]
 
#14 ·
I have to politely disagree with the impression people are giving that diesel horse power and torque is "Different" than gasoline horse power and torque. I've spent thousands of hours on gasoline tractors and diesel tractors. Both have limits, but they are determined in some similar ways and other times in different ways. Cubic inches of displacement is a good measure of potential torque, lower high speed engine rpm is another. I've pushed two feet of snow with my #1 snow mover, 80 inch wide blade at 1200 rpm 30+ HP gasoline engine. The engine is rated at 1650 rpm, but maximum torque is at 750-800 rpm. It's called torque rise, as the engine rpm slows down due to increasing load it pulls harder to lug it's way though the tough spot. A diesel engine can do that too, but so can many gasoline engines.

I've seen intercooled turbo diesels that would pull the load fine at 2100 rpm, but to start the load on the run you have to have the engine spinning 1500 rpm and increasing at a brisk pace or the engine would stall. Poor torque rise!

Horse power is a function of rpm and torque. It all depends on where the engineer wanted the torque peaks and HP peaks to be.
 
#4 ·
Went from blower to bucket when I upgraded in 2013. What took me 40 minutes with the old NH with a blower took me almost 2 with bucket. Yeah I know, more seat time. Not w/o a cab and the wind I had that fist storm..... blower was on order within the hour. Want a hard side too someday.

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#5 ·
Where did you find the 36 tooth sprocket? I love my blower, but my old Wheel Horse 520H with a single stage blower would throw snow farther. I would love to get more distance out of what I have now. The sprocket sounds like a cheap mod.
 
#11 · (Edited)
I got my sprocket and a 10 foot length of #40 chain with two master links from Red Boar Chain & Fastener Call 208-597-3500 <sales@redboarchain.com>

Sprockets and Hubs | Red Boar Chain & Fastener Call 208-597-3500

It cost me 1x #40 ROLLER CHAIN 10FT ROLL W/FREE CONNECTOR LINK - Price per one roll. for
$18.10 each
1x Sprocket 40B36H Heat treated Type B for #40 Roller Chain 36 Tooth - 1" Bore
for $26.90 each. Sprocket is all one piece not welded.

And got free shipping

The 1" sprocket bore with keyway and two taped (5/16) holes as original. But it has a nice snug fit on the shaft, no wobble. The chain slack/tension is uniform as rotated. The original 19 tooth driver on mine was good and runs true. I used a length of chain 24" long counting the master link. Original I think was 26". Can't be positive on those lengths so measure yourself, it's been awhile.

I definitely disagree the stock ratio can be improved on for a diesel. Perhaps a smaller yet sprocket (34/35 tooth) will be even better. Keep in mind this blower was provided for both gas as well as diesel tractors. When the diesel is loaded up it does not drop off as a gas engine does.

I just checked by book with notes for the John Deere and the chain lengths are correct.
 
#7 ·
Glad to hear you're enjoying your tractor and blower. Wondering same thing as others where did you find the 36 tooth gear ?


SIL has owned a front blade for 8 years or more, would always use the fel , OH it is so much quicker..

Last winter they had 30-36" snowstorm, After doing maybe 50-75' in close to 45 mins. Changed to front blade cleared his .3-.5 of a mile driveway in about 2-3 hrs. He is looking for a front snowblower and maybe a larger tractor ,he has a 2305 with hyd fan and 14 acres of woods.
 
#8 ·
Ok fellas. Put chain sproket in google. It is a #40 chain. Look for one with for a 1 inch shafts size. There are lots of places on the net. Shy away from chinajunk. Will prolly run you 60 to 70 bucks for a decent one 25 to 40% more for a good one. Buy the midrange priced one. The one on the drive shafts side is junk anyway. By the way, they do not know how to make a welding jig where the welded sprokets is off center. Some worse than others. So good luck setting the chain tension. Rotate the drive while doing this. Split the difference.
When I do my rightbuild, I am buying all SKF concentric locking bearings, Browning chain and gears and a new shaft as what is there cannot be reused. I also have already the original metal impeller to swap out the plastic junk impeller. That modification alone will throw the snow much farther. By the way, I will be switching to a #50 chain, like the older units were made. I am considering the appropriate sized Timing Belt set up. That would require fabrication of an enclosure to keep out ice snow or rocks out, but that would be a much better solution for driveline longevity. And before anyone says a belt won't take the torque/hp, i run that type set up on a homemade gen set. So very feasible. Just throwing the ideas out there. Might cost 400 to do it right, but what the hell. Already have 30k+ into tractor and equipment. What is $4 or 5 hundred more.

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#10 ·
My 54" blower seems to throw the snow plenty far with the stock sprockets... :dunno:

I did fix the chain tension when I got it, whatever part-time lackey set it up had the chain as tight as a gondola cable.
 
#12 ·
I think that some of the techs think the chain is supposed to be tightened like a guitar string so they can make a "tune" by strumming it. Excessive tightness is a great way to get to repair and replace the chain and components more often..........:good2:Of course, excess slack isn't good either.

I had my replacement chain made with a master link and the spare I keep in the parts box that also has a master link. Sure makes replacing them easier.
 
#16 ·
IMHO the advertised horsepower and torque specified are not accurate. Either the diesels are advertised to be to low, and/or the gas models are over rated. Especially the torque ratings. Common sense says a 3 cylinder diesel has more power pulses on the crank over a 2 cylinder gas. Given that a 24 HP gas engine vs a 24 HP diesel both at 3000 RPM should be about equal according to advertised published spec. But in actual use the diesel feels far more powerful. With say the snowblower loaded up in each the diesel holds it's RPM and doesn't load down and loose RPM's the way the gas model does. If the engines were rated true the sales on the gas would drop off in favor of other brands. Again IMHO it's just a sales game making the gas power numbers artificially high.

Even in pick up trucks the diesel pulls/tows far better than an equal size gas engine hands down. The diesel tractors follow suit.
 
#17 · (Edited)
From my experience with tractors, torque rules, and a diesel will always out-pull a gas engine rated at the same hp.

Case in point... in 1989 the 5.9 Liter Dodge Cummins diesel was rated at 160hp, at 2500 rpms..but had 400 lb-ft of torque. The 2.4 liter engine in my Camry is rated at 170 hp. Hook each of them to a 5th wheel trailer and see what happens...
 
#18 ·
You start out talking about tractors, then your example is comparing a passenger car to a heavy-duty pickup truck?!?!?

Well, if the Toyota had 12-15 speeds forward properly spaced the Toyota would win easily. If the Toyota only had three speeds the truck would win. The other thing you have to keep in mind, a diesel engine will almost always be larger displacement and much heavier than a gasoline engine of same HP. And as long as you keep them in their operating range of RPM they will perform similarly. The dyno's they test tractors on at the Nebraska test labs are the exact same regardless of what fuel the engine burns. The rules for testing HP are all cast in stone by the SAE and ASAE. There's only one set of rules.

I've run 200-225 HP trucks over hundreds of thousands of miles hauling freight. Some gas powered, some diesel. There really isn't that much difference in how they perform. Number of transmission speeds, the RPM drop when shifting up makes much more difference than what fuel the engine burns. Yes, the gas engine will burn more fuel, sometimes a LOT more fuel, but the bottom line is cost per mile. And more companies are switching back to gasoline fueled trucks for their light and medium duty needs. Second year I hauled ready-mix cement between my Soph & Jr year in college my 1966 White had a 165 HP Cummins, and TWENTY forward gears and four reverses in a 52,000# truck. Some hills I could not downshift fast enough, I had to slow to a speed the truck could crawl up the hill and let the cars pile up behind me!

I'm keeping my 20 year old diesel pickup with 301,000 miles, it runs good, paid for, but twenty years of use has caused issues, rusted power steering, fuel, and brake lines, I've spent $2000+ on those the last 3-4 years! If I bought a new truck today it would most certainly be gasoline powered. They're cheaper to begin with, fuel & maintenance is cheaper, probably have to be a RAM, they're the only company that still puts a manual trans in them.
 
#19 · (Edited)
I bet this topic comes up all the time here, and I bet the moderators grind their teeth every time... :laugh:

Torque is a measure of rotational force (at the end of a 1 foot long lever arm).

Horsepower is a measure of work over time, relying on both Torque and Revolutionary Speed (RPM).

A quick google search will provide a formula. Horsepower = (Torque in Foot Pounds) x (Revolutionary Speed in RPM) / 5,252

So, in short, if an engine is making 1 ft.lb. of torque at 5,252 RPM, it is producing 1 horsepower.

Because Diesels tend to never reach 5,252 RPM, they must make a lot of torque to create equal horsepower to a higher revving gasoline engine. This is very true in the Automotive arena. Not as true in our tractor arena where our Yanmar Diesels rev to 3,300 RPM and a Kohler V-Twin revs to 3,750. That means the Yanmar and the Kohler are making very similar torque, at rated engine speed.

Where the difference really lies in in the Torque Curve. The diesels will make close to maximum torque way down low, usually just a little above idle. Then torque will roll off gently as RPM increases. Gasoline engines produce torque very differently, usually producing their lowest torque at idle with a steady increase as RPM increases, usually peaking a little short of their rated engine speed. This makes the diesels typically better at maintaining torque under load.

There are other major considerations too that make the diesels better choices for tractors. Efficiency and longevity. A diesel engine will almost always use significantly less fuel, and will typically last far longer (hours/miles).
 
#23 · (Edited)
I often said, horsepower was something that they invented to sell cars. Torque is what actually gets the work done.
When I had the old L108 I received paperwork from a class action lawsuit. Apparently Briggs & Stratton over rated the horsepower rating on of some of the engines. Ever since they started advertising the torque output instead of horsepower.
 
#25 ·
I often said, horsepower was something that they invented to sell cars. Torque is what actually gets the work done.
When I had the old L108 I received paperwork from a class action lawsuit. Apparently Briggs & Stratton over rated the horsepower rating on of some of the engines. Ever since they started advertising the torque output instead of horsepower.
The measure of Horsepower was actually created to sell small steam engines. When engines came onto the scene, they wanted to demonstrate to potential buyers that they could do the work of or replace X number of horses.

:bigthumb:
 
#27 ·
I should have used a MUCH better example in the beginning...my father and I have 2 very similarly sized and age tractors, rated at the same hp (20 at the crank), and with 5 foot mowers: a JD 750 Diesel, and a Satoh Elk 550G gasser.

They both run great and work hard, but, when we would cut deep thick grass with them side by side in the same gearing, NO contest. The gas powered Satoh starts to pull down out of its powerband, loses rpms, and wants to bog. The JD diesel pulls down SLIGHTLY, gets into it's peak torque range and doesn't bog, just grunts and maintains rpms.

The diesel power band is much better suited to tractor work.
 
#28 ·
The newest gasoline engine used in outdoor power equipment I've seen a HP and torque curve for is the Kohler cast iron single cylinder K series used by many, actually most l&g tractor mfg's. The torque peaks varied by model, but ranged from 2200 to 2800 rpm with a full load engine speed of 3600 rpm. If you could find a HP & torque chart for your little naturally aspirated 1023/1025 diesel engines I bet their torque peaks are in the same rpm range. An engine that has a low idle speed of 1500 rpm will not be making maximum torque at that engine speed.

Somebody comparing their HEMI powered Ram 1500 to their 5.9 Cummins powered Ram 2500/3500 tells me whole lots more than is actually said.

If you don't understand the importance of GEARING, the number of available speeds to operate in vs actual vehicle speed vs engine rpm vs the load on that vehicle, and the distinct advantage infinite speed selection of hydrostatic drive offers even with the parasitic drag and inefficiencies of the drive system. You're always in the right gear. Try the same load & situation with a solid gear drive. The diesel will be some little bit better. It will also burn less fuel per hour, probably last a little longer, and probably cost about twice as much. A water cooled diesel compared to an air cooled gas engine.
 
#29 ·
The newest gasoline engine used in outdoor power equipment I've seen a HP and torque curve for is the Kohler cast iron single cylinder K series used by many, actually most l&g tractor mfg's. The torque peaks varied by model, but ranged from 2200 to 2800 rpm with a full load engine speed of 3600 rpm. If you could find a HP & torque chart for your little naturally aspirated 1023/1025 diesel engines I bet their torque peaks are in the same rpm range. An engine that has a low idle speed of 1500 rpm will not be making maximum torque at that engine speed.

Somebody comparing their HEMI powered Ram 1500 to their 5.9 Cummins powered Ram 2500/3500 tells me whole lots more than is actually said.

If you don't understand the importance of GEARING, the number of available speeds to operate in vs actual vehicle speed vs engine rpm vs the load on that vehicle, and the distinct advantage infinite speed selection of hydrostatic drive offers even with the parasitic drag and inefficiencies of the drive system. You're always in the right gear. Try the same load & situation with a solid gear drive. The diesel will be some little bit better. It will also burn less fuel per hour, probably last a little longer, and probably cost about twice as much. A water cooled diesel compared to an air cooled gas engine.
Torque curve of a Yanmar 3TNV80F-SDSA (very similar to the 1025R engine)

 
#31 ·
Yeah, crazy. The difference between the lowest and highest torque output is within 4 Nm (3 ft.lb.). I've seen some pretty flat torque curves out of gasoline engines, but nothing like this where the engine is producing 93% of maximum torque at idle and staying within 93% for most of its operating range.
 
#36 ·
Metric is reproducible to physical science. SAE is not. It is all arbitrary measurements. A foot was literally how long the guys foot was.

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#39 ·
Hey funny you should mention chevy 327 @ 350hp. that in the quickest car I ever owned. I owned a 455HO that was a sled but the 327 was quick.
 
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#40 ·
455 cubic inches = ⛵⚓ LOL or so I'm told. I'm more of a 440 6 Pack guy since I had a 1970 Cuda back in high school.
 
#42 ·
1025R Torque Curve

I did some more digging, and I found the engine used on the 1025R. It's a 3TNV76. Here's the torque curve:



The torque curve is a bit less flat than that of the 3TNV80. But still making ~92% of maximum torque at idle. In fact, it makes more torque at idle than it does above 2,900 RPM.

See attachment for full sell sheet.
 

Attachments

#43 ·
I did some more digging, and I found the engine used on the 1025R. It's a 3TNV76. Here's the torque curve:



The torque curve is a bit less flat than that of the 3TNV80. But still making ~92% of maximum torque at idle. In fact, it makes more torque at idle than it does above 2,900 RPM.

See attachment for full sell sheet.
This graph (3TNV76) is over all higher level than the previous (3TNV80F-SDSA). Not as flat but overall higher level even with the drop off of both above 3000 RPM. A range of 92% to 93% of maximum torque at idle is impressive no matter what beer you are drinking.
 
#44 ·
One big take away for me is, there is no good reason to push the 1025R past 3,200 RPM. It will do 3,300, but look at the loss of torque, power and efficiency at that speed. Why push it...!?

The real sweet spot is 3,000 RPM. That's where it's running on full stride (Max Power). Doing lighter duty, don't be afraid of 2,000 RPM (Max Torque).
 
#46 ·
Agree fully. The snow fall accumulation was more of a normal accumulation today. Previous wet sloppy stuff was handled with ease also. With the snow blower chain drive speed up of 10% (now 19 to 36 tooth) I now run at 2900 RPM and get as much distance projection into the lawn as it was with the original !9 to 40 tooth sprockets running at 3300 RPM full tilt. These little diesels as I've said before are just amazing power output. IMHO the 2900 RPM's is more in the power band as the graph does show and I'm getting the same or more work out of this little tractor at a lower RPM.

The heavy sloppy stuff does throw farther at 3300 RPM but because the fan is turning faster. But you need slow travel speed. It does not seem necessary to run 3300 RPM with normal snow as distance is good at 2900 RPM.
 
#47 ·
Do you know of a youtube video showing how well this works? I have a berco blower and wonder how the modified JD blower compares.

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#48 ·
Being that JD’s 54 inch blower is used on gas engine as well as Diesel engine tractors the auger and impeller speeds are a compromise. The Berco may well be the same. You could “fool around” with sprocket changes to find a more acceptable performance for your combination. I found the combination change I tried to be more acceptable. Perhaps a greater increase say 15% may exhibit greater distance. I was satisfied with 10% so didn’t try any more. My thought was the heavier the snow the more torque required to toss it the same distance as lighter snow. I feel I have a better suited auger/impeller speed up to handle the heavy stuff and still be in the engines torque/power peak band.

I have not attempted to search out you tube’s on modified auger/impeller speeds. There are some on linear motor driven chute elevation adjustment.
 
#50 ·
Thanks for finding this. From what I’ve gleaned out of this thread, the newer engines have max torque at 1900 rpm. I think...
 
#51 ·
And more companies are switching back to gasoline fueled trucks for their light and medium duty needs.

He is correct. Down time during warranty and price of repairs after warranty, or possible charge back even during warranty if you got a dose of water at some point.
 
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