Question for anyone who has or had a 4100(series) with 410 FEL.
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My 4100/410 is my first CUT, which I bought 6 or 7 months ago. I've done a lot of work with it, and it runs good, but there are a couple things that don't seem right.
The problem is that when I use the boom and bucket to lift the front wheels off the ground, as soon as I release the joystick, the wheels settle right back on the ground. I thought I whould be able to raise the front wheels off the ground, release SCV to neutral position, and that the wheels would stay up. (to change a tire, install front chains, etc). Do other 4100's work the same way?
The other annoyance is that the bucket and the boom drop very very fast, unless I am extremely careful to finesse the control valve. Is there a way to slow the descent, maybe with a flow restricter? Is there an off the shelf part I could buy? Is there a downside to doing this?
I bought the tractor with it's history as a mystery. It did look like it lived a hard life; maybe rental or hard use, poor maintenance. The engine has been professionally rebuilt, and it runs as new. I did all new fluids and filters as soon as I bought it.
There is a LOT of slop or play in the joystick. I wonder if there is a bad valve there, or an adjustment that is out. Can I replace parts of this control? What else could be causing the problems described?
Maybe some of you can weigh in to let me know what I can do about this, if anything.
The problem is that when I use the boom and bucket to lift the front wheels off the ground, as soon as I release the joystick, the wheels settle right back on the ground. I thought I whould be able to raise the front wheels off the ground, release SCV to neutral position, and that the wheels would stay up. (to change a tire, install front chains, etc). Do other 4100's work the same way?
The other annoyance is that the bucket and the boom drop very very fast, unless I am extremely careful to finesse the control valve. Is there a way to slow the descent, maybe with a flow restricter? Is there an off the shelf part I could buy? Is there a downside to doing this?
I bought the tractor with it's history as a mystery. It did look like it lived a hard life; maybe rental or hard use, poor maintenance. The engine has been professionally rebuilt, and it runs as new. I did all new fluids and filters as soon as I bought it.
There is a LOT of slop or play in the joystick. I wonder if there is a bad valve there, or an adjustment that is out. Can I replace parts of this control? What else could be causing the problems described?
Maybe some of you can weigh in to let me know what I can do about this, if anything.
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Kenny, thanks for reply.
1. I rebuilt the right side bucket cylinder, due to leaking fluid aout around the seal. I have not rebuilt any of the others yet, although the boom cylinders are not leaking, and I can see evidence that the left boom cyl was worked before. There are pipe-wrench marks on it.
2. Definitely not going into float mode.
3. Thanks for the diagram. I will look into that.
1. I rebuilt the right side bucket cylinder, due to leaking fluid aout around the seal. I have not rebuilt any of the others yet, although the boom cylinders are not leaking, and I can see evidence that the left boom cyl was worked before. There are pipe-wrench marks on it.
2. Definitely not going into float mode.
3. Thanks for the diagram. I will look into that.
Me too. Two steps forward; one step back. :laugh: ...but I appreciate the detail. In fact, no amount of detail or info is too much for me to read.
I do have an oil-filled 3000 (or greater.. not sure), oil-filled pressure gauge that I bought for testing pressure-washer output. I think with the correct fittings, it could be used for the hydraulic system.
I thought about the boom cylinders maybe leaking presure internally, past the piston seal, but with only one seal in the piston, wouldn't it also drop the boom (with a load in the bucket), just as it lowers the tractor wheels to the ground?
At least now I know that it should not do this. Now I just gotta find out how to fix it. :dunno:
on edit: I forgot to answer your question (I highlighted in blue). Yes, there is a very pronounced, firm, detent for the float position. In fact, when I first bought the tractor, I actually thought that I didn't have that feature, as I was hesitant to *jam* the stick forward, hard enough to go into float.
I do have an oil-filled 3000 (or greater.. not sure), oil-filled pressure gauge that I bought for testing pressure-washer output. I think with the correct fittings, it could be used for the hydraulic system.
I thought about the boom cylinders maybe leaking presure internally, past the piston seal, but with only one seal in the piston, wouldn't it also drop the boom (with a load in the bucket), just as it lowers the tractor wheels to the ground?
At least now I know that it should not do this. Now I just gotta find out how to fix it. :dunno:
on edit: I forgot to answer your question (I highlighted in blue). Yes, there is a very pronounced, firm, detent for the float position. In fact, when I first bought the tractor, I actually thought that I didn't have that feature, as I was hesitant to *jam* the stick forward, hard enough to go into float.
SGS, the loader will eventually drop down, but it will take hours, not seconds. If I lift the front of the tractor, as soon as I relax the control lever, the wheels drop to the ground. So I am thinking there is something else going on. If it were cylinder seals, wouldn't the loader drop down as soon as I released the joystick? There is only one seal on the pistons of the cylinders, so that seal has to hold pressure both lifting up, and pushing down the loader. Correct?
Appreciate your input on this, as well as everyone else who has posted to this thread. Yesterday, I made a trip to the local hydraulics shop, and bought a piece of 1/4" hose, and some fittings, which will allow me to test the pump pressure with a 5000 psi oil-filled gauge that I already had. I haven't done that test yet, but I am predicting that the pump pressure will test good. Here's why:
I decided to do a little loaded bucket lift test, so I picked up my 800 lb+ ballast box with the bucket. The loader easily lifted that load, and held it there after I let the control return. The bucket did not drift. I did lift it much highers than shown, with the engine at idle speed. That tells me that the boom cylinder seals must be good. That also indicates that the hydraulic pressure, even at idle, is also good.
I can lift the front of the tractor more than a foot off the ground, but as soon as let go of the control, it goes right back down. So what should I check next?
![Land vehicle Vehicle Tractor Agricultural machinery Harvester]()
I decided to do a little loaded bucket lift test, so I picked up my 800 lb+ ballast box with the bucket. The loader easily lifted that load, and held it there after I let the control return. The bucket did not drift. I did lift it much highers than shown, with the engine at idle speed. That tells me that the boom cylinder seals must be good. That also indicates that the hydraulic pressure, even at idle, is also good.
I can lift the front of the tractor more than a foot off the ground, but as soon as let go of the control, it goes right back down. So what should I check next?
If you're asking me, I don't know. What do I look for, and would this be something installed on the hydraulic hoses somewhere? Would that diagram that Kenny posted, tell us anything?
Great idea. I will do it tomorrow. :thumbup1gif:
Info update
Had some time this afternoon to run a few tests. Here's what I found:
When I switched the boom and bucket hydraulic lines, the boom will lift and hold the tractor up. So the issue seems to be in the SCV boom down valve. I also noticed that while they were switched, when I raised the boom, and then curled the bucket, it (the empty bucket) would start to dump. That wouold be the valve that is normally for the boom.
When I switched the lines back, I did the test again. And at first, it also held the trator up, and I was thinking what the heck is going on, it's working. Then I put the bucket and boom to both extremes, and held for several seconds each end of travel, to feel sure that any trapped air would bleed out. After I did that, I lifted the front axle up again, and it dropped right back down in just 2 or 3 seconds. Now I am even more perplexed...
But I noticed that as the tractor went back down, that the tractor was also moving (none of the previous tests had the brake set. So I held my foot on the brake, and lifted the front end again. Now it will stay there. Remove my foot from the brake, and it lowers the tractor as it rolls the tractor backwards.
Should I expect the boom to hold the front end up whether the brake is set or not?
I also tested the hydraulic pressure at the port for the boom down line, and it was 2300 psi. Don't know if that is the way to test it, but at least I know that at 2100 rpm, I have 2300 psi when the SCV valve is held down.
I did try to see if the SCV valve was returning to neutral, or overshooting and going slightly past it to raise the boom. It did not appear to, but I will check it more closely tomorrow.
Thanks for all the suggestions.
![Auto part Vehicle]()
This is how I plumbed up the fittings today.
![Green Water Gauge Tire Automotive wheel system]()
PSI at 2100 rpm, with gauge in-line with Fel. I did not do a dead-head test yet.
![Product Water Material property Lubricant Tire]()
This is the hydraulic fluid that I have in the tractor. In the print at the bottom, it lists as meeting the specs of John Deere, and is compatible with both synthetic and regular hydraulic.
Had some time this afternoon to run a few tests. Here's what I found:
When I switched the boom and bucket hydraulic lines, the boom will lift and hold the tractor up. So the issue seems to be in the SCV boom down valve. I also noticed that while they were switched, when I raised the boom, and then curled the bucket, it (the empty bucket) would start to dump. That wouold be the valve that is normally for the boom.
When I switched the lines back, I did the test again. And at first, it also held the trator up, and I was thinking what the heck is going on, it's working. Then I put the bucket and boom to both extremes, and held for several seconds each end of travel, to feel sure that any trapped air would bleed out. After I did that, I lifted the front axle up again, and it dropped right back down in just 2 or 3 seconds. Now I am even more perplexed...
But I noticed that as the tractor went back down, that the tractor was also moving (none of the previous tests had the brake set. So I held my foot on the brake, and lifted the front end again. Now it will stay there. Remove my foot from the brake, and it lowers the tractor as it rolls the tractor backwards.
Should I expect the boom to hold the front end up whether the brake is set or not?
I also tested the hydraulic pressure at the port for the boom down line, and it was 2300 psi. Don't know if that is the way to test it, but at least I know that at 2100 rpm, I have 2300 psi when the SCV valve is held down.
I did try to see if the SCV valve was returning to neutral, or overshooting and going slightly past it to raise the boom. It did not appear to, but I will check it more closely tomorrow.
Thanks for all the suggestions.
This is how I plumbed up the fittings today.
PSI at 2100 rpm, with gauge in-line with Fel. I did not do a dead-head test yet.
This is the hydraulic fluid that I have in the tractor. In the print at the bottom, it lists as meeting the specs of John Deere, and is compatible with both synthetic and regular hydraulic.
Clint,
I haven't done the left bucket curl cylinder rebuild yet, but I will do that next. It's leaking from around the outer seal. Assuming that if the front wheels are pushed up off the ground with the boom control, they should stay up whether the brake is on or not, then I still have a problem. If I set the brake (or press on the brake pedal), raise the front end up, and relax the joystick, it will remain up (for the short time I tested it that way).
I wanted to get back out there this weekend, and do some more checking, but this weeked took a different turn, and I have been busy with unplanned activities... that's life.
I'll probably get to that either tomorrow or Tuesday. I'm pretty sure, at this point, that the SCV valve isn't holding pressure, when in the neutral position. But I do want to verify. I have been told that the SCV cannot be serviced, and if there is any valve problems with it, that the whole assembly would need to be replaced. That sounds expensive, so if it's that, I will probably just have to live with it.
Clint, thanks again for your help on the phone, and for the parts.
I haven't done the left bucket curl cylinder rebuild yet, but I will do that next. It's leaking from around the outer seal. Assuming that if the front wheels are pushed up off the ground with the boom control, they should stay up whether the brake is on or not, then I still have a problem. If I set the brake (or press on the brake pedal), raise the front end up, and relax the joystick, it will remain up (for the short time I tested it that way).
I wanted to get back out there this weekend, and do some more checking, but this weeked took a different turn, and I have been busy with unplanned activities... that's life.
I'll probably get to that either tomorrow or Tuesday. I'm pretty sure, at this point, that the SCV valve isn't holding pressure, when in the neutral position. But I do want to verify. I have been told that the SCV cannot be serviced, and if there is any valve problems with it, that the whole assembly would need to be replaced. That sounds expensive, so if it's that, I will probably just have to live with it.
Clint, thanks again for your help on the phone, and for the parts.
Well, in my post above, I mentioned that somebody told me the SCV valve was expensive. In fact, I remember them saying that it was somewhere in the neighborhood of $700~. So yesterday, I drove the hour drive to the local Deere dealer, to find out first hand, and I did.
It is not $700, or anywhere near that. The price of the SCV valve block for a 4100 tractor is....
.
.
.
.
...........drum roll please.....
.
.
.
.
.
...........(fasten your seatbelt)
.
.
.
.
.
That part, which they have in stock :yahoo: is only $1882.00 :laugh:
and they will still have it in stock tomorrow, and next week, and next month, and probably next year...
cause I ain't buyin it, and I'm thinking nobody else it either. :lol:
It is not $700, or anywhere near that. The price of the SCV valve block for a 4100 tractor is....
.
.
.
.
...........drum roll please.....
.
.
.
.
.
...........(fasten your seatbelt)
.
.
.
.
.
That part, which they have in stock :yahoo: is only $1882.00 :laugh:
and they will still have it in stock tomorrow, and next week, and next month, and probably next year...
cause I ain't buyin it, and I'm thinking nobody else it either. :lol:
BigJim,
The answer to that question is more than a yes or no. I am not 100% convinced that the SCV is actually the problem, since it is *possible* that an internally leaking boom cylinder seal could hold pressure better one way, (lifting), and not so good the other, (pushing down). The seal on the piston does have a taper to it, which is oriented to seal better when lifting. So I will rebuild the boom cylinders first, to eliminate that.
Since the loader functions perfectly well in all regards except lifting and holding the front wheels off the ground while the brake is off, I don't know if that would be much of a problem. If I set the park brake, I can raise the front end, and it will stay *(at least for the time I allowed it to). That's a bit of a puzzle to me.
If the SCV really is the problem, I will look for one on ebay, craigs, forum classifieds, etc.
If that fails to produce one, there are many suitable SCV's for around $200. that would work, IF they could be physically mounted to the tractor. For a $1650~ savings, I'm willing to do some machine shop fabrication.
Maybe I'll win a lotto, and just go get me a new 3038 :laugh: (note to self... ya gotta actually buy a ticket to have any chance to win). :lolol:
Meanwhile, the old 4100 is a good workhorse. just as it is.
The answer to that question is more than a yes or no. I am not 100% convinced that the SCV is actually the problem, since it is *possible* that an internally leaking boom cylinder seal could hold pressure better one way, (lifting), and not so good the other, (pushing down). The seal on the piston does have a taper to it, which is oriented to seal better when lifting. So I will rebuild the boom cylinders first, to eliminate that.
Since the loader functions perfectly well in all regards except lifting and holding the front wheels off the ground while the brake is off, I don't know if that would be much of a problem. If I set the park brake, I can raise the front end, and it will stay *(at least for the time I allowed it to). That's a bit of a puzzle to me.
If the SCV really is the problem, I will look for one on ebay, craigs, forum classifieds, etc.
If that fails to produce one, there are many suitable SCV's for around $200. that would work, IF they could be physically mounted to the tractor. For a $1650~ savings, I'm willing to do some machine shop fabrication.
Maybe I'll win a lotto, and just go get me a new 3038 :laugh: (note to self... ya gotta actually buy a ticket to have any chance to win). :lolol:
Meanwhile, the old 4100 is a good workhorse. just as it is.
:thumbup1gif: lol,,, since I was there already, I figured I should at least sit in the seat of a new 3038, ya know, just to see if I liked it. :laugh:
I didn't even ask the price. :lolol:
I didn't even ask the price. :lolol:
Good , Clint. Thank you, that is now exactly my plan. :good2:
Cylinder rebuild went well, and no longer leaks. :good2:
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