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Discussion Starter #1
Hi all, I have a new 2025r, with JD quick hitch and weight box. I may have to tow a friends tractor home...question is...I have no attachment points yet. I plan on a heavy hitch with JD weights but for now, can I tow with a rope around the top hook of my quick hitch? Can this damage anything? I plan on getting some bolt on hooks for my bucket, and I may put one on the weight box too. Let me know if I have to watch out for something here.
 

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Use a shackle and pull from the draw bar, that's the thing down low in the rear under the PTO.
 

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As a general rule, you always want your tow connection points to be below your axles. Lower is better.

Pulling from a point above the axle takes weight off the front wheels. If you tow something heavy enough or whatever you are towing stops dead for some reason, your front wheels will come right up off the ground and they will come up high enough to flip you right over. If your connection point is below the axle and the towed item stops dead, it puts MORE weight o your front axle.

Your 2025R has a hitch plate mounted below your rear PTO shaft. You can attach a clevis to that and than attach a rope or chain to the clevis.
 

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As a general rule, you always want your tow connection points to be below your axles. Lower is better.

Pulling from a point above the axle takes weight off the front wheels. If you tow something heavy enough or whatever you are towing stops dead for some reason, your front wheels will come right up off the ground and they will come up high enough to flip you right over. If your connection point is below the axle and the towed item stops dead, it puts MORE weight o your front axle.

Your 2025R has a hitch plate mounted below your rear PTO shaft. You can attach a clevis to that and than attach a rope or chain to the clevis.
Hi Jim, it is always good to go as low as possible, but I wanted to point out that the old “towing below your axle puts more weight on the front wheels” theory is incorrect. The easiest example I can show you is go watch a video of a tractor pull and you’ll see them raise the front even though they attach below the axle. The reason that two wheel drive tractors have weights on the front is to give the rear wheels more weight when plowing and, of course, to keep the fronts on the ground.

Still, lower is always better/safer.


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Discussion Starter #6
Trailers I pull from the iMatch with a 2" receiver mounted. Heavy stuff like uprooting trees or pulling a vehicle .... makes more sense to me to pull low from the frame. I installed this, not for a 2" ball but for maximum attachment flexibility (shackles etc)



I looked at that mount...does it in any way interfere with the rear PTO?
 

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I looked at that mount...does it in any way interfere with the rear PTO?
There is plenty of clearance for PTO driven implements with this style receiver hitch … :good2:
 

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Hi Jim, it is always good to go as low as possible, but I wanted to point out that the old “towing below your axle puts more weight on the front wheels” theory is incorrect. The easiest example I can show you is go watch a video of a tractor pull and you’ll see them raise the front even though they attach below the axle. The reason that two wheel drive tractors have weights on the front is to give the rear wheels more weight when plowing and, of course, to keep the fronts on the ground.

Still, lower is always better/safer.


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Actually the theory and physics are still valid. It’s just the driving power to the wheels is greater than the available traction, and drag created by what’s being pulled. In short, the front wheels would lift higher and faster the higher up the point of attachment.
 

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Axle torque

Actually the theory and physics are still valid. It’s just the driving power to the wheels is greater than the available traction, and drag created by what’s being pulled. In short, the front wheels would lift higher and faster the higher up the point of attachment.
We all recognize that the torque on the rear axle/wheels tends to live the front. If you attache above the axle, the tow line also tends to lift the front. Put them together and there's little except front end weight to keep the front wheels down. Unfortunately as the front comes up, the moment arm (horizontal distance of front weights) gets shorter. So when you hitch above the axle as the front starts to come up, effectively the front weights become less effective. That makes the front come up even faster and puts more weight on the rear wheels increasing the traction, again increasing the rotational torque.

Hitching above the axle is one of the deadly sins. If you do it often, sometimes even once, you will pretty much find yourself upside down. If you are lucky, your ROPS and seatbelt kept you alive.

If you want a simple, visual demonstration find a toy tractor. Hitch a string above the rear axle and let it go down a steep incline on a board. When it hits the end of the string, the tractor will flip backwards. Tie the string below the axle and the tractor just stops. Big, big difference even without an engine also trying to flip the tractor.

Treefarmer
 

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We all recognize that the torque on the rear axle/wheels tends to live the front. If you attache above the axle, the tow line also tends to lift the front. Put them together and there's little except front end weight to keep the front wheels down. Unfortunately as the front comes up, the moment arm (horizontal distance of front weights) gets shorter. So when you hitch above the axle as the front starts to come up, effectively the front weights become less effective. That makes the front come up even faster and puts more weight on the rear wheels increasing the traction, again increasing the rotational torque.

Hitching above the axle is one of the deadly sins. If you do it often, sometimes even once, you will pretty much find yourself upside down. If you are lucky, your ROPS and seatbelt kept you alive.

If you want a simple, visual demonstration find a toy tractor. Hitch a string above the rear axle and let it go down a steep incline on a board. When it hits the end of the string, the tractor will flip backwards. Tie the string below the axle and the tractor just stops. Big, big difference even without an engine also trying to flip the tractor.

Treefarmer
Are you saying that a tractor won’t flip over backwards if hooked below the axle? Because that is most definitely false. It has already been discussed on this forum extensively.

The pivot point on any vehicle is where the tires meet the ground and NOT where the axle is. The closer to the ground you attach the more leverage the vehicle has on the object, or the higher up you attach on the tractor the more leverage the object has in the tractor. The reason you notice such a big difference is because tying above the axle vs on the drawbar can move the attachment point 3’ down or more which can essentially reduce the leverage by 300% or more and not because there was an axle involved.

It’s just like pulling down a tree. The higher up you tie your chain the more leverage you’ll get. The lower you tie the less leverage. The axle is not a pivot point because it’s floating in the air. I. E. There is no fulcrum at the point of the axle.

Now, if the axle was stuck in a concrete block then it would be a pivot point and pulling below the axle would pull the front down (of course you wouldn’t be moving and you’d have to assume the load was pulling you backwards and that the tires had less traction than the concrete. lol). The axle is floating in air. No pivot point. When the fronts come up the axle goes back regardless of where the load is attached.

As I have stated, watch a tractor pull, they hitch way down low and still pull the fronts off the ground. Big 4 wheel drive tractors get light up front which is a cause of hopping.

Regardless, lower is better.


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Nope, not what I'm saying

Are you saying that a tractor won’t flip over backwards if hooked below the axle? Because that is most definitely false. It has already been discussed on this forum extensively.

The pivot point on any vehicle is where the tires meet the ground and NOT where the axle is. The closer to the ground you attach the more leverage the vehicle has on the object, or the higher up you attach on the tractor the more leverage the object has in the tractor. The reason you notice such a big difference is because tying above the axle vs on the drawbar can move the attachment point 3’ down or more which can essentially reduce the leverage by 300% or more and not because there was an axle involved.

It’s just like pulling down a tree. The higher up you tie your chain the more leverage you’ll get. The lower you tie the less leverage. The axle is not a pivot point because it’s floating in the air. I. E. There is no fulcrum at the point of the axle.

Now, if the axle was stuck in a concrete block then it would be a pivot point and pulling below the axle would pull the front down (of course you wouldn’t be moving and you’d have to assume the load was pulling you backwards and that the tires had less traction than the concrete. lol). The axle is floating in air. No pivot point. When the fronts come up the axle goes back regardless of where the load is attached.

As I have stated, watch a tractor pull, they hitch way down low and still pull the fronts off the ground. Big 4 wheel drive tractors get light up front which is a cause of hopping.

Regardless, lower is better.


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I was not saying it's impossible to flip a tractor with a low attachment point. It is possible due to the rotational torque. However hitching below the axle means that the load subtracts from the torque lifting the front end while attaching above the axle adds to front end lift.

The rotational axis is the axle. Force is being applied to the ground at the tire/ground intersection point. You could chain the tire to the ground and the tractor will rotate around the axle. Either way you state it, lower is definitely better.

Treefarmer
 

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I was not saying it's impossible to flip a tractor with a low attachment point. It is possible due to the rotational torque. However hitching below the axle means that the load subtracts from the torque lifting the front end while attaching above the axle adds to front end lift.

The rotational axis is the axle. Force is being applied to the ground at the tire/ground intersection point. You could chain the tire to the ground and the tractor will rotate around the axle. Either way you state it, lower is definitely better.

Treefarmer
Man, respectfully, the location of the axle means nothing since the axle is floating in the air. The only leverage decrease is the decrease in distance from the attachment point to the ground and not in relation to the axle. If you pulled at 2” above the axle and then at 2” below the axle the only decrease you’d notice is the reduced leverage of 4” and not a huge jump. I.e. a 4 inch reduction from 8” above axle to 4” above axle will produce the same amount of reduction as a 4” reduction from 2” above the axle even though the axle centerline is passed in the latter scenario. The only way to make the axle a pivot point is to make the axle a stationary object in the air, but then you can’t drive.

Yes, rotational torque is benign created but it’s only acting on the attachment point and not on the axle when pulling something.

I just don’t want someone to attach below the axle, think that it can’t flip (or that it’s way unlikely to flip), then flip it on themselves.


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Yes, rotational torque is benign created but it’s only acting on the attachment point and not on the axle when pulling something.




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For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
 

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uhh hmmm....should this be in the Actual pulling sector....jk

I can see both or more sides of this.

We got safety
We got what is gonna work the best.
Hitch heighth plays a huge role AS does traction & power...& then there is the ground ( dirt /sand/concrete)


So where we at in this conversation...specific peramiters....:munch:
 

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Yep. On the attachment point in relation to the ground. Good call!


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Torque isn’t linear. When torque is applied, a reverse force is applied in return. There are also linear forces in multiple directions, but torque and resistance is a measurable factor. Tires either crush for a contact patch or dig into dirt causing the overall force vector to not be parallel to the ground, but the idea in acceleration tests of pulling or drag racing is to have zero weight in the steering and also no waste power lifting the front off the ground. De tuning does run faster if you lift the front less but still lift it.
 

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uhh hmmm....should this be in the Actual pulling sector....jk

I can see both or more sides of this.

We got safety
We got what is gonna work the best.
Hitch heighth plays a huge role AS does traction & power...& then there is the ground ( dirt /sand/concrete)


So where we at in this conversation...specific peramiters....:munch:
Fair enough.
 

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Torque isn’t linear. When torque is applied, a reverse force is applied in return. There are also linear forces in multiple directions, but torque and resistance is a measurable factor. Tires either crush for a contact patch or dig into dirt causing the overall force vector to not be parallel to the ground, but the idea in acceleration tests of pulling or drag racing is to have zero weight in the steering and also no waste power lifting the front off the ground. De tuning does run faster if you lift the front less but still lift it.
Yes. Just remember that the axle is not a pivot point since it’s free floating in the air.


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Yes. Just remember that the axle is not a pivot point since it’s free floating in the air.


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What if it is not a floating axle?
 

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What if it is not a floating axle?
Yes, if the rear axle was not allowed to move rearward in relation to the bottom of the tire then the other guys would be 100% correct in their assessment. However, when pulling the axle can move rearward which keeps the axle from being a pivot point which negates any and all effects that the axle location has on whether or not the front will lift.

When I say floating I just mean that the axle (which in turn moves the whole tractor) is able to move in relation to the bottom of the tire. I don’t mean that it’s a true “floating” axle in relation to the tractor itself. Sorry if I confused anyone due to that terminology.


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