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$3200. Gotta drink/shower with something. :lolol:

Pump it up, dump it right back down. Repeat. :dunno:
Dumping it back into the well? Are you serious?

Ok i’m Scared now:hide:
Why not? If everything in the system is food-safe, where's the problem?
You better scrap the automotive radiator plan then:lolol:
3 problems:
1) it’s illegal
2) the small (relatively) amount of water at the bottom of your casing that is migrating in from the aquifer would quickly warm up from the recirculating.
3) the potential to contaminate your well.
That is what I was going to say, what are you doing with the water? If it is was a lake property you might be able to pump it out of the lake and return it to the lake. If you are going to pump it out of the ground and dump it on the surface, I guess you could get away with it. If you plan on pump it out of the ground and return it to the water table, I highly doubt you will be able to do that. That said, there are some places that allow open loop geothermal systems which is basically what you are looking at doing without the rest of the fancy geothermal system. Since you are most likely talking about your place up north and not in suburbia, who knows what they will allow. I would start by reaching out to the county as in most cases they or their watershed districts control what can and can't be done. If this is something you want to do, I would start there. The big issue you are facing is returning it to the water table without the water going through the filtering process of passing through all the soil. That is why you can likely get away with dumping it on the surface pumping it right back down into the well. You can just say you are just discharging the water to your lawn or garden if you dump it on the surface and you would be fine unless there are some watering restrictions in the area. For instance only being able to water on odd number days or something goofy like that. I doubt that would be the case up north as that is more of an issue with the capacity on municipal water systems and those of us with private wells don't have those restrictions. Plus dumping it on the surface will raise a lot fewer questions by the people that do the permitting. Worst case is if they even pay attention to the size pump they might say wow that is a big pump for a small workshop/cabin but I even doubt they will get that involved.

I guess from a mechanical perspective, I would be concerned about work load on the pump. Not sure how deep your well would be in that area. If it is shallow where you can get by with a surface mount jet pump it wouldn't be as bad. At our house we are on a private well around 165' deep. So not terribly deep. The well pump went out a year or so ago after 18 years or something like that. It ran $1200 I think to replace it. Granted that was hiring it out. I don't have a big enough FEL to try and replace it on my own and I hired it out. Pump was only a few hundred. I doubt they are designed to have a really high duty cycle like you would be seeing in cooling like that. This is where the closed loop geothermal systems really are better in terms of reliability. The biggest issue though is in cases where open loop geothermal systems are permitted, I want to say they don't allow pumping out and returning down the same hole. You would likely need to dig two separate wells. One pulling the water up the other sending it back down. Again depending on the depth of the well, this might get pretty costly.

I am not saying this is a terrible idea, I just don't know that they will allow it. At least the pumping it back in the ground. Maybe dig a nice pond and dump it there.
 
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Discussion starter · #22 ·
You better scrap the automotive radiator plan then:lolol:
3 problems:
1) it’s illegal
2) the small (relatively) amount of water at the bottom of your casing that is migrating in from the aquifer would quickly warm up from the recirculating.
3) the potential to contaminate your well.
You're assuming used radiators, I'm not.

I also happen to have 2 springs on my property, and one is about 250' away from the build site.

As I was laying in bed trying to fall asleep I was thinking of ways to rig a heat exchanger in the headwaters of my closer spring.

Speaking to humidity - I did mention this already, and it very well could be the best dehumidifier available. Condensate management is certainly in the front of my mind when talking about inducing moist air across sub-dew point objects.

Btw Arlen, the delta from the hot air and cold ground water is 40°. So automotive type radiators could work based on your own words. :)
 
You're assuming used radiators, I'm not.

I also happen to have 2 springs on my property, and one is about 250' away from the build site.

As I was laying in bed trying to fall asleep I was thinking of ways to rig a heat exchanger in the headwaters of my closer spring.

Speaking to humidity - I did mention this already, and it very well could be the best dehumidifier available. Condensate management is certainly in the front of my mind when talking about inducing moist air across sub-dew point objects.

Btw Arlen, the delta from the hot air and cold ground water is 40°. So automotive type radiators could work based on your own words. :)
If you have natural springs, can you just pump from there and return it to the spring. Not sure what the county would say if they came out and saw it but if you did the work yourself. The biggest problem is getting the water to from the spring site. In my garage build project I don't know if you saw where I installed some of that insulated PEX tubing that is designed for running to those outdoor wood fired boilers. It is well insulated but not cheap. I think I paid around $800 for 70' of it. I mention insulated pipe as it would help keep that cold spring water a lot cooler.

I don't know if you have any drop from the spring to your build site but have you ever seen a ram pump. It looks intriguing but may not help you in your solution.

RAM PUMP - IT ACTUALLY WORKS!!! - YouTube

A dehumidifier is basically a small AC unit. That is why they are so expensive to run. You could very well use your idea to dehumidify like you said.
 
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Discussion starter · #24 ·
Your best bet is to insulate the crap out of the building. Then you can get creative with the cooling technologies.
I have 1.5" high density foam outside the sheathing and R19 batts in the walls on my shop, which is then clad in insulated vinyl siding for a R29 total wall package. The attic is blown denim to an R60 (it was over 18" deep at install), but that might be less now as it's been 12 years.

My annual heating cost is about $300 out there (can be lower :) ). The new shop will actually have an even better insulation package, despite it only getting about 6° colder up North.
 
Discussion starter · #25 ·
If you have natural springs, can you just pump from there and return it to the spring. Not sure what the county would say if they came out and saw it but if you did the work yourself. The biggest problem is getting the water to from the spring site. In my garage build project I don't know if you saw where I installed some of that insulated PEX tubing that is designed for running to those outdoor wood fired boilers. It is well insulated but not cheap. I think I paid around $800 for 70' of it. I mention insulated pipe as it would help keep that cold spring water a lot cooler.

I don't know if you have any drop from the spring to your build site but have you ever seen a ram pump. It looks intriguing but may not help you in your solution.

RAM PUMP - IT ACTUALLY WORKS!!! - YouTube

A dehumidifier is basically a small AC unit. That is why they are so expensive to run. You could very well use your idea to dehumidify like you said.
I am familiar with ram pumps and did think about that.

That insulated pex line can be made at home with a 2-part foam spray kit for under $400.
 
I am familiar with ram pumps and did think about that.

That insulated pex line can be made at home with a 2-part foam spray kit for under $400.
Yes, I did look into that option. I have seen where people just build a frame for the foam, run the PEX through it and buy those 2 part foam kits from Menards. Others used something like a 4" drain tile. In my case I just was running into that time vs paying for it issue. Though had I known we would be sitting for 3 weeks waiting on the floor to get poured, I probably would have had time to make it myself.

I am not using my insulated PEX run for cooling but rather heat. My plan is to run the return lines from the in-floor heat to the shop in the pole barn and through a heat exchanger like what you are doing for cooling. Because I am feeding it return glycol it will probably be a little cooler than what I am cycling through the floor. However it will give me more of a thermal delta on the return once it actually goes back to the boiler so it runs a little more efficiently. So not totally free heat but pretty darn close.

Also my AC died in the house which actually is kind of a good thing. We are running a loop from the boiler to the furnace and I will have a heat exchanger in there as well when the AC work is being done. That will be an actively heated loop like the floor and by running the fan on the furnace it will help heat the house. Originally we were only planning on staging for this loop to the furnace. It will happen a bit sooner now.
 
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Discussion starter · #27 ·
It's only cooling now because it's hot out. As I mentioned, 45° ground water is 60° warmer than ambient in January. What I want to do is share the load between the earth and the mechanical systems, so the inputs from both electrical and natural gas can be minimized year-round.
 
It's only cooling now because it's hot out. As I mentioned, 45° ground water is 60° warmer than ambient in January. What I want to do is share the load between the earth and the mechanical systems, so the inputs from both electrical and natural gas can be minimized year-round.
That is exactly what is done with geothermal systems. You don't have a lake close enough but I have seen where people do that. They basically throw a bunch of tubing out in the lake and cycle it back to the cabin for heating and cooling.

In fact that brings up something to be considered. What about doing a closed loop system to a grid of some sort in the spring? The benefit is that then you can run glycol through it then and not worry about the entire thing freezing up in the middle of winter if your pump went out and you were not around for a week or two. Just a thought. Even with a pump system if you are running spring water through it you have to pay attention to blockages from leaves or other debris. A closed loop system solves that. It also would mean you would face fewer questions should the water shed district stumble across this project. Just a thought. You also might be able to save a bit on being able to use used radiators then to offset additional costs for glycol. It would mean a ram pump won't work but it may not work for you anyhow.
 
What are you using for a ground source? A well field or horizontal buried piping?

i had access to reasonable priced drilling so i have a well field.... 5 -200' thermo grouted wells only cost me $1500.........if i had not had access to cheap drilling i would have gone with the horizontal option.....or built a pond and put a loop field under it ...
 
Discussion starter · #31 ·
That is cheap drilling!

Just leaving the grocery store today with room-temp 2L pop bottles, they were wet from condensation by the time I got to my truck 5 whole spots away from the door. That's 70+ fluid inside a poor thermal conductor.

I've got my eye on these, but need to find out more about who's making them:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-380431/?tab=Overview

I've used Griffin in the past, and have no complaints with their quality.
 
That is cheap drilling!

Just leaving the grocery store today with room-temp 2L pop bottles, they were wet from condensation by the time I got to my truck 5 whole spots away from the door. That's 70+ fluid inside a poor thermal conductor.

I've got my eye on these, but need to find out more about who's making them:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-380431/?tab=Overview

I've used Griffin in the past, and have no complaints with their quality.

yes....due to years and many thousands of $ of business i had done with them this was a bare bare cost job favor for me....usually would have cost about that per well..........but a horizontal ground loop is relatively inexpensive and can be put in with a backhoe just have to be careful and back-fill correctly......i was in asimilar situation to you and went thru a similar process of thought for my cooling after much consideration i went with the GS system ...the small package unit like i have in my small shop is unbelievably efficient
 
I have 1.5" high density foam outside the sheathing and R19 batts in the walls on my shop, which is then clad in insulated vinyl siding for a R29 total wall package. The attic is blown denim to an R60 (it was over 18" deep at install), but that might be less now as it's been 12 years.

My annual heating cost is about $300 out there (can be lower :) ). The new shop will actually have an even better insulation package, despite it only getting about 6° colder up North.
R19 in a stick built wall is really about R12.
Lots of heat loss in studs/framing.

If your WHOLE wall (not just in between studs/framing) is R29 that's a good start, now add another R10 or so.

More importantly you need to steps to insure the building being air tight. Doesn't matter what your walls/ceiling is insulated to if the building leaks air like a sieve. Minimize air leakage first, insulation 2nd.

If your building envelope is air tight and well insulated you'll need minimal cooling.

I have a workshop/garage that has 3 1/2 SIP panel walls with 1" of foam on the outside of that with only 12" of cellulose insulation blown in and it is always 10-15 cooler than outside in summer.

Windows, are they shaded from sun in the summer and exposed to sun in winter?
 
R19 in a stick built wall is really about R12.
Lots of heat loss in studs/framing.

If your WHOLE wall (not just in between studs/framing) is R29 that's a good start, now add another R10 or so.

More importantly you need to steps to insure the building being air tight. Doesn't matter what your walls/ceiling is insulated to if the building leaks air like a sieve. Minimize air leakage first, insulation 2nd.

If your building envelope is air tight and well insulated you'll need minimal cooling.

I have a workshop/garage that has 3 1/2 SIP panel walls with 1" of foam on the outside of that with only 12" of cellulose insulation blown in and it is always 10-15 cooler than outside in summer.

Windows, are they shaded from sun in the summer and exposed to sun in winter?

:bigthumb:....insulation ...insulation...insulation...the gift that keeps on giving
 
Btw Arlen, the delta from the hot air and cold ground water is 40°. So automotive type radiators could work based on your own words. :)
I was talking about the delta between entering water temp and leaving water temp

I also happen to have 2 springs on my property, and one is about 250' away from the build site.
That would work allot better, for allot of reasons!
Why don't you use a ground source heat pump and use that for the ground source, and forget about the direct cooling with well/spring water.
It would work work for heating and cooling. Your original idea will be completely ineffective for heating.

Speaking to humidity - I did mention this already, and it very well could be the best dehumidifier available. Condensate management is certainly in the front of my mind when talking about inducing moist air across sub-dew point objects.
You will get some dehumidification, but it won't be great. That was a common problem with the old single pass cooling methods I was talking about earlier (like the VA hospital used).
The water just isn't cold enough. You need to get it down to 40-42 deg at the coil, and at a healthy gpm. That's just not possible (or easy at least) without mechanical cooling.
The coils really have to be designed and sized for chilled water too.
Are you planning on using lots of makeup air? or will you be recircing most of it?
if you really need to dehumidify, you need to sub cool the air down to whatever dewpoint you would like to maintain, then reheat it back up to the desired temperature for comfort.
Water heat pump systems make that easy and efficient... instead of rejecting the condenser heat back to the source, you pipe some hot water back through a "reheat coil" as needed.
 
Google 'passive cooling' or 'passive heating' to find a whole library on the subject from Europe, Britain and to a lessor extent far north America.
Or as I like to say, "Duck it up" (DuckDuckGo). :drinks:
 
Discussion starter · #40 ·
I'm spec'ing my well for 20gpm so I can do pump'n'dump for dehumidification and cooling.

Looks like I'll be going with a 5 ton ground loop heat pump for the regular heat and AC. If I have a secondary LP furnace on it's own t-stat, I get half price electricity on my heat pump as long as they can shut it down on peak demand nights.
 
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