Green Tractor Talk banner
1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
971 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was getting ready to put a proportioning / flow limiting needle valve on my TnT tilt cylinder. So was on the Surplus Center site, had a ton of stuff in the shopping cart as I was getting a big assortment of couplers, angled couplers, bushings and the like. I also had to go out to my JD 4520 and look at things at take a guess as to what the sizes were. You got tractors, you got hydraulics. You got hydraulics, you're gonna be messing with them so get an assortment of stuff.

That got me thinking I'd like to get a pressure gauge, so I search TBN site for a post that kennyd did that had part numbers and all. I find the post, find the number, go back to the Surplus Center web window, added the gauge, and it was the only thing in the cart, the rest was gone.

I guess if you can't do "the shopping experience" in under an hour, it gets nuked. And given the huge assortment of stuff, and the need to get it right based on what tractor you have, so it takes time and searching. I'll price some Surplus Center stuff, compare it to local prices and assortments, call some hose suppliers on the web for the pressure gauge set-up and take it from there. Someone will make some money just because they know what sort of QCs a Deere 4x20 series takes, and what sort of pressure gauge works with hydraulic fluid.

This is probably why outfits like CCM make money. The gauges I saw on the Surplus Center sites did not say what size the threads were on the gauges. You don't know what to get. So someone who can just put it all together for you gets your money. Ignorance is expensive :laugh:.

Oh well, just ranting. I'm sure the Mouser and Digi-Key catalogs are just as frustrating when people who don't do electrical stuff try to buy things (but their shopping carts don't time out as fast).

Pete
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
733 Posts
Someone will make some money just because they know what sort of QCs a Deere 4x20 series takes, and what sort of pressure gauge works with hydraulic fluid.
QC's are "Standard AG" Couplers...translation...Parker/Pioneer 4000 and 8000 series...Pretty much everyone compared to those two.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
21,048 Posts
All the gauges have 1/4" NPT ports, I can still help if you need it.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
971 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Kenny, Dave, I'll just have to keep the cart moving so they don't take it away :laugh:.

It seems inevitable that some hydraulic work will be done, so I just want an assortment of 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2" stuff, assume all this stuff is NPT threads. Then I have two specific tasks, the needle valve for the tilt and a pressure gauge.

For the needle valve, I have what I think is 1/4" fittings and know is 1/4" line to the tilt cylinder, so I was going to get a 1/4" needle valve. The assortment of "stuff" should take care care of any male-female mismatches, and by the time I'm done I'll be able to identify sizes by looking at the outside of the various pieces of the system. I also want to re-route the hoses so they are not against the rear window, and so some of the 90 degree and short M-F same size adapters will help me do that.

The pressure gauge seems like a piece of test equipment that you will need some day, so I just want to get it in house for when that day comes. While I've seen a lot of gauges screwed directly into the quick connect, I'm thinking I want one on about 2 feet of 1/4" hose in case I need to be moving something or tweaking something and want to see the gauge. The glycerin filled gauge 3000 PSI seems to be what to get. The 4520 has a max pressure of 2500.

So all this will solve my TnT speed problems, and give me some tools for working the the hydraulics on all three tractors. It was just really frustrating to have an hour and a half of figuring stuff out and a shopping cart with 20 or so things just go away. I'm also think that stuff from the Surplus Center and Discount Hydraulic Hose is OK quality, and know that there would be no way to get this assortment with a trip to TSC since they never have complete stock. No good local sources for hoses here, adapters are cheap enough that it's a "just get some".

Discount Hydraulic hose had some thread sealer, is that OK stuff to use?

I'll yell when I get in trouble (that's _when_ :banghead:)

Pete
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
21,048 Posts
Discount Hydraulic hose had some thread sealer, is that OK stuff to use?
Yes, it's good stuff. You want a PTFE base paste-NO Teflon tape! I use Loctite #565 or Permatex #80632

You are correct on the 0-3000PSI filled gauge, and the short hose helps alot also. Here is a picture of mine-although I have since replaced the 12" hose with a 24" hose so it is easier to use.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
430 Posts
I use a 5000 psi guage as my 110tlb is rated for 3000 psi. I have heard from several sources over the years that mid scale reasdings are more accurate, don't know if this is true or not. A friend of mine has borrowed it but it is a Lenz glycerin filled guage with a 24" hose.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
971 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Got my box of hydraulic adapters in from Surplus Center. Got the gauge. Got my needle valve for the TnT tilt cylinder. So today's quest is to get a 24" hose, thread sealer and the QCs. I'll be trying to find a good local shop, failing that will use my Deere dealer. I was going to order the hose and thread sealer, but the shipping was way too much.

I was thinking of making my pressure gauge with a 'T' and a male and female QC so it can be plugged "in line" with an existing hose, or just plugged in and the female left disconnected. Anyone tried this before?

Pete
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
21,048 Posts
I was thinking of making my pressure gauge with a 'T' and a male and female QC so it can be plugged "in line" with an existing hose, or just plugged in and the female left disconnected. Anyone tried this before?

Pete
You can do that, but I personally do not see any value in it if you are just checking the pressure every now and then.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
971 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Kenny, if you don't see the value then I'll just put the gauge on a 1/2" QC.

Got the male QC from my Deere dealer today. The "other" hose shop is out of business, tried another auto parts place and they don't do ag. This makes two hose places that seem to only do big commercial and skid steer stuff. Got the Permatex 80632.

Looks like the Parker 4000 are 1/4" and the 8000 are the 1/2" ?? My 318 uses the 4000 series and is 1/4" fittings.

The pressure gauge I have isn't 1/4 NPT. It's smaller than that, but bigger than the grease gun hose. Box says 2.5" (face size) x 1/4" SAE Bott Conn. Looks like I got the wrong type? I held off on the hose until I can figure this out. The Surplus Center part number is 21-1587-T . Should I have got the 21-1045 to get the 1/4 NPT size? Looks like another school of hard knocks education moment... If I bring up the .pdf page, I can see it. On line searches can't find it. Back to the thread title again.

Looks like all their 1/4" hoses are male to male, is there such think as a male to female? Also looks like I should perhaps bump up to a 3/8" so I can get a 4000 PSI hose. The 1/4" is rated at 2750 PSI which is only 250 PSI over the relieve vale point on the 4520.

What can I say but TIA !

Pete
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
733 Posts
Looks like the Parker 4000 are 1/4" and the 8000 are the 1/2" ?? My 318 uses the 4000 series and is 1/4" fittings.
Actually Pete, the 4000 series is available in multiple sizes...like your 318, my F935 has 1/4" versions....but the ol 3520 all the way up to the Farm Tractors we have take the 1/2" ones....And you can use Male 8000's in Female 4000's as well. I only stock the 8010P's here because they work in everything...

http://www.parker.com/portal/site/PARKER/menuitem.de7b26ee6a659c147cf26710237ad1ca/?vgnextoid=fcc9b5bbec622110VgnVCM10000032a71dacRCRD&vgnextfmt=EN&vgnextdiv=&vgnextcatid=127903&vgnextcat=4000+SERIES+QUICK+COUPLINGS+-+NA&Wtky=QUICK+COUPLINGS

Looks like all their 1/4" hoses are male to male, is there such think as a male to female?
There sure is...well..mebbe not off the shelf, but if you hit your local parker store (or most NAPAs) you can get anything under the sun done...
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
21,048 Posts
The pressure gauge I have isn't 1/4 NPT. It's smaller than that, but bigger than the grease gun hose. Box says 2.5" (face size) x 1/4" SAE Bott Conn. Looks like I got the wrong type? I held off on the hose until I can figure this out. The Surplus Center part number is 21-1587-T . Should I have got the 21-1045 to get the 1/4 NPT size? Looks like another school of hard knocks education moment... If I bring up the .pdf page, I can see it. On line searches can't find it. Back to the thread title again.
Yeah, that is the wrong gauge, but you could also get an adapter to make it work.
One of these: https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-6404-4-4&catname=hydraulic
And one of these: https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-5000-4-4&catname=hydraulic

And you could use an "off-the-shelf" premade hose. 2750PSI rated hose would not bother me at all for this application. Dave gave good advice on the couplers. Isn't this fun?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
971 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
The 4F to 1/4 will work and is cheaper than a new gauge, I have the 1/4 F to F as part of the assortment of stuff I got. I basically got 2 each of all couplers (F-F, M-M), 90 degree (F-F,F-M,M-M), bushings (all permutations) and adapters (all permutations) for 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2". I was kinda surprised no one had a kit.

I'm looking at the coupler data, that's going take some more time. The local NAPA store is what closed in this area, I'll web search for the next closest one and see what they can do.

My dealer today asked what I wanted with the couplers, told him. He said I think differently than most folks. And he said it much nicer than most people do :laugh:. I just said that I wanted the pieces around when something went wrong, and want to learn and see what things looked like when everything was working. I kinda see all this hydraulics stuff as inevitable. It also seems like once you get the part numbers and sizes figured out, and then find a good source for hoses, that this is all quite DIY stuff (vs. rebuilding an engine or something insane like that).

Tnx Dave and Kenny !

Pete
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
971 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Got my 2nd delivery from Surplus Center and made up my pressure gauge. I hate paying $11 in shipping and handling on a $15 order, but what can you do.

It took a while to fill the hose with hydro fluid. I had everything together but the QC, and then used a plastic squeezer (can't spell surenge) (that I got from Surplus Center) to put a little fluid in, then a piece of insulated #12 wire about 8 inches long to "burp" in down into the house. After I put the QC on I pressed on the ball and topped it off too.

Put it on the 3rd SCV, put pressure to it, read 2500 pounds just like it should be :thumbup1gif:. Now I now the tractor was set up correctly in case things change down the road.

Everyone made this an easy project, all I had to do was listen (ok, sometimes that is the hardest part :lol:). Pipe thread paste Kennyd recommended was great, no tape used here, again just listen.

My next post here: The needle valve...

Pete
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
971 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
So I got the needle valve in, and had to figure out how to install it and run the hoses. The hose that got the needle valve would have to have been rotated 180 degrees to be the way I really wanted it, it did not want to rotate. I now understand why the "swivel" adapters are popular.

So the 1st pix is the QC, the needle valve, and the existing 90 degree swivel connector to the hose.

The 2nd and 3rd shots are how it connected to the couplers at the rear. I have to use tie wraps to keep it away from the lift arms, and will probably put a piece of wire (a rebar tie) on there to insure there are no problems.

The last shot is the cleaned up rear of the TnT. The hoses, which used to arc up over the window, are now tucked away under the tractor between the windshield wiper fluid holder and engine controller board. While in there, I notices that the windshield wiper line was really flopping around, so it got some tie down to it. There is also a connector stub by the engine controller that will be tied down. I hate stuff just banging around...

The whole reason for the needle valve is that the tilt part of the TnT was way to sensitive and fast. You would have to carefully crack the joystick to control it. With just one turn out on the needle valve it takes about 4 seconds to go end to end. So you can adjust it on the fly much easier. I was having to stop every time I wanted to change the tilt so I could adjust it.

It sounds different because anything other than a barely cracked joystick puts enough fluid to it that you can hear the relief valve kick in. Of course because I have a pressure gauge, I know it's all OK :thumbup1gif:.

So now the TnT is even more usable, the hoses are out of the way so I can open the rear glass easier and life is good. Now if only the TnT cylinder bracket had a slot in it like the other side instead of a hole, then I could still have the 3PH in a float mode.... sounds like the next task!

Again tnx to Steve and Kennyd. Listening to them beats the heck out of listening to people argue about Teflon paste vs. tape :munch:

Pete
 

Attachments

·
Administrator
Joined
·
21,048 Posts
Nice job Pete, thanks for posting the follow up:good2:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
733 Posts
Now if only the TnT cylinder bracket had a slot in it like the other side instead of a hole, then I could still have the 3PH in a float mode.... sounds like the next task!
Nice work! :good2:
I've contemplated maying my own Hyd Lift link...and I was gonna use a factory JD "lift link clevis" so I could retain the factory "float" as you mention. The price on them isnt bad at all...Could you cut off the existing one and weld on the JD Factory clevis?

Is that the stock location for the hydaulic lines? I thought the 4x20 diverter setup was mounted on a bracket similar to the 3rd scv? I assume you have the diverter?

My next tractor project (if I stop buying and making projects :lol:) is to add another 3 hyd circuits out back....
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
971 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
If I do the 3PH float thing, it will be contracted out to my local welding shop. Hadn't thought about get part # 19 and welding it on, I'll have to ask them which is easiest

I also not sure about what happens if you try to weld a cylinder with the check valve on it and the fluid heats up. Should the check valve be removed before welding?

I have no diverter. For $500 I had the lines for the loader removed and hose run to the back of the tractor, and then they attached the plate that was for the loader. Part of this is stupid learning curve on my part. I did not want a loader since I had the B21. The diverter is $1200 and more if they install it. If I knew then what I know now, I'd order the tractor with the diverter. iMatch was the same story. Thought I'd see how hard it was to put on the implements, after the 1st time putting on the MX6 I knew I needed the iMatch. 1st time putting on the 800# box blade, I ordered it.

Now the other fatal flaw in this plan is in a year or two when the 4000 series chassis gets changed, I'll have to by a loader while I can. It would be bad if something happened to my B21 5 years after they stopped making the loader and I had to try to find one. So, I suspect in a year or two I'll end up getting the diverter and putting it on and getting a CX loader. Between the hose move and the cylinders, I've got about $1100 in the TnT. The factory TnT is about that much, but they make you get the diverter. I guess if you're going to learn the hard way, it's better to do it on the little stuff than the tractor itself. Catch 22. How do you learn what you need until you use it?

But as mistakes go, I've done worse that cost more. And it gets better all the time. I'm sure when I do get the loader there will be some job that will come up where I'll wonder why I didn't get it sooner, but who knows. The real "did I learn anything" moment will come when I add the diverter and have to decide if I should also add the power beyond so the tractor is fully hydraulically tricked out.

So at the end of the day, it's only a $500 error, not too bad of a tuition payment at the school of hard knocks. And I got a free "intro to hydraulics" course too!

Pete
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
733 Posts
I also not sure about what happens if you try to weld a cylinder with the check valve on it and the fluid heats up. Should the check valve be removed before welding?
What I've done in the past is to use the "cheapie" plastic plugs..I've got a variety here in various thread pitches...that way there, the plastic will pop out in a worst case senario...

Now the other fatal flaw in this plan is in a year or two when the 4000 series chassis gets changed, I'll have to by a loader while I can. It would be bad if something happened to my B21 5 years after they stopped making the loader and I had to try to find one. So, I suspect in a year or two I'll end up getting the diverter and putting it on and getting a CX loader. Between the hose move and the cylinders, I've got about $1100 in the TnT. The factory TnT is about that much, but they make you get the diverter. I guess if you're going to learn the hard way, it's better to do it on the little stuff than the tractor itself. Catch 22. How do you learn what you need until you use it?
FINANCIALLY it might be a mistake, but you can still buy the brackets to put a 300x onto a 8 or 955....the cost just went up 300 bucks because they discontinued the whole goods PN# for the bracket kit, but you can still buy the brackets thru parts.
On the other hand, they may fix the "issues" with the 400cx...By issues I mean the dump angles, etc...So you could end up with a "better" loader.
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top