Synthetic Oil in older tractors?

Maddog said:

I don't think I was questioning the value or performance of synthetic oils. Syn is certainly not a new invention. The aircraft industry & the military in particular have been using Syn before the start of WWII. For many of us, conventional oils & blends work just fine. For the rest of us, there is a choice that we can make. Also while Syn oils cost more, no one should accept or reject there use based on cost. Selection should be based on use & need.

I'm not sure I understand some of what you stated. You mentioned the air intake system. There is no question that an air intake system that is not properly filtered or operating correctly will totally destroy an engine in no time at all. But what is the relationship between the air & oil system. They are seperate systems. No lubrication system, including Syn system is going to protect your engine from airborn contamination. For instance, if you suck in some fine beach sand while doing 70mph, there's nothing that's going to prevent tearing up your cylinder walls. At least as far as I know.

You mentioned conventional oils breaking down in the heat & not protecting in the cold. I agree there are extreams. But no one seems to back up their statements with some data as to when & what point this happens at. I mean, how would I know I'm overheating my oil if my engine is running with no overheat issues? And if I'm changing my oil well ahead of the recommended change times, what are the odds? One of the reasons new cars run on 5wt oil is to reduce the friction wear alone caused by heavier grade of oil in engines built with high component tolerences, as well as the thickening of the oil you mentioned due to cold conditions. But there again how cold is cold ?

Lets agree to disagree. I don't think there are any right or wrong answers here. Just personal choice. I'm not in a situation where going Syn is going to improve anything for me. If I thought it did I would jump on it. But maybe a guy down the road from me might see it diffrently for himself.
:beer:

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Maddog, I'd like to clarify what I was saying about dirt getting into the intake system. The oil companies claim you can go 7,500 or 10,000 miles before you need an oil change with synthetics. I don't believe that is completely accurate. Maybe for a select few that drive alot of miles on a freeway like a truck driver or sales person for example, this may be ok. For many of us, I don't agree with a 7.500 or 10,000 mile oil change interval. The largest reason to change oil is not because it has broken down, but it is to flush the contaminants out of your oil system. The excess fuel that didn't burn, moisture, engine wear that leaves particles floating around, and dirt that gets past your air cleaner. I was not saying oil will protect you if sand gets in the engine. I am saying you need to dump your oil to remove the dirt and other contaminants.

Contrary to what most people think, an oil filter does not really filter much, which enhances the need for regular oil changes. Your engine has an oil by-pass valve. When the oil pump circulates the oil through your engine, the majority of your oil does not flow through your oil filter for each cycle. Every engine is a bit different, but we're talking 2/3 to 3/4 of your oil doesn't flow through the oil filter per cycle.

As far as when oil breaks down, especially if you over heat it, I have no idea when to know when that is. In all honesty I don't care. It does not apply to most of us. I don't think the majority of us could work our engines hard enough to break down the oil whether it be synthetic or non synthetic. As far as cold weather, I have seen oil jell up at around 0 to 10 degrees. This also applies to transmission fluid, in particular manual transmissions. A good example of this is a few of my cars have had manual transmissions and in the winter they shift hard until the transmission warms up. In some cases they were hard to get into gear. After I switched to synthetic oil in the manual transmission, I could take my finger and poke the shifter into gear when cold rather than jamming with force. I've tried pouring 5w-30 oil that has been sitting in a trunk of a car or a non insulated garage and it takes a while when it is 0 or 20 below zero. My mechanical oil pressure gauge also take a while for the needle to move off zero at these temps. Synthetic 20w-50 at -20 degrees will still pour like water. With synthetic 10w-40 I have instant oil pressure at -20 degrees. Synthetics don't freeze or jell up like the non synthetics will do. As I said, cold weather use is my biggest reason for using synthetics.

I do agree with you, synthetics are not for everyone. I do personally feel they are superior to non synthetics. For many people the decision not to use synthetics is based on the up front costs and I don't feel that is the way to look at it. It should be based on how the synthetics can make something you own work better or last longer. Each person has to scratch their head and see if the switch to synthetics makes sense for them or not. It's a complicated subject with many different opinions. I base my opinion from 22 years of experience as an engine builder and as many years working on vehicles. Let the debate rage on!

arlen said:

I use synthetic in everything. My logic is as follows:

1) Conventional oil has no advantages besides cost.
2) I can afford synthetic oil.
3) Synthetic oil thins less when heated.
4) Synthetic oil thickens less when cooled.
5) Synthetic oil cleans better.
6) Synthetic oil lasts longer.

How many more reasons do you need?

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I sincerely hope I am not opening up a can of worms here, as the saying goes. I don't mean to, and I dont want to be confrontational about this oil subject. You asked "how many more reasons do you need". Well I don't need any more than what you posted. But I have one question, which again brings me back to what I have been saying here. No one is questioning the quality of Syn, including me. But all I am reading here is people saying how much better it is, but no one has stated there actual operating parameters that makes then want to use Syn. I guess what I am asking here is this. If you operate your engines within the specified limits of what a conventional oil can handle, then of what benefit is using a Synthetic? And one of the reasons why no one can state actual operationg data, is simply because the average Joe has no training in lubrication enginnering, chemestry, & a bunch of other engineering & science you would need to provide data.

The oil companies, produce both products. Given the world we currently live in with all the wars, global economic pressures, supply interuptions, political horse hockey & whatever else, don't you think the oil companies wnat to sell you on the idea that Syn is the greatest invention since sliced bread. Some of our members here are not old enough to know that Syn oils are NOTHING NEW. They have been around for about the past seventy five years.

I personally do not use Syns simply because I do not run my stuff beyond what a conventional is designed to do. So Spending more for Syns would not give me any added benefit, other than one possibly, which would be extended time between changes. I am not at all AGAINST synthetics. I'm just questioning how people defend this stuff. No one here is condemming it. I'm just asking: Do you really need it.

In one of your points you stated you use it because you can afford to pay for it. If I had to disagree with you on anything, that would be the one point I would argue with you. It's a baseless point when it comes to deciding to use the stuff. There are a number of things that I can "Afford" to pay for, but would never opt to buy. Buying it & affording it are personal choice having nothing to do with the products use.

I hope no one gets upset over this. I'm just trying to get past all the marketing hype of oils & down to how you can really justify using one product over the other & which is the best product to use strictly based on Individual Operating Conditions of the machines. Please don't give me a beat down.
:flag_of_truce:

I think the biggest advantage of synthetic oil is on cold start up. The oil flows instantly to the bearing surfaces and much less drag on the engine too. Same with transmission and hydraulics if they are using synthetic.
One of my customers is Summit Oil Co...a division of Kluber. I routinely do exhaust/supply air testing in their labs. I have befriended a few of their chemical engineers . (they produce a lot of synthetics for different resellers) I am helping them with their development of a new synthetic refrigerant oil . Basically.... All I do is introduce and reclaim different refrigerants into a testing chamber. They have told me the synthetics cling to the bearing surface for a much longer time after engine/compressor shutdown, which means less wear on next start up.Also, Conventional oil actually wants to "run away" from extreme hot surfaces and synthetics will do the opposite. Synthetic shear strength is much better than conventional. This was explained to me as molecules being split or cut apart from gear interaction,etc . Also....even though an engine may be running at 180 degrees, that is an average temperature. There are hot spots in several areas .

I am going to be working at Summit next week. I'll see if they can point me to a study or something that may explain it better.

Maddog said:

but no one has stated there actual operating parameters that makes then want to use Syn.:

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Cold temperature pour point. That's a widely published spec for most oils. Not only to synthetics shine in that arena, they do it without viscosity modifiers; which makes them more stable over a wider range of temperature.
I think many people use synthetics for that reason alone.
Every so often I put a couple of quarts of oil in my deep freeze for fun. My deep freeze is at -10 deg F. It is shocking how well the synthetic pours, while the conventional won't even pour out of the bottle. That was a "real world" test I first did 20 years ago, and that alone convinced me. All of the other advantages are icing on the cake.

On the point of being able to afford the synthetic, I was just saying that if the only disadvantage is cost, then it's not an issue for me.

Don't worry about opening a can of worms, people on this forum seem to like worms:laugh:

Maddog said:

I sincerely hope I am not opening up a can of worms here, as the saying goes. I don't mean to, and I dont want to be confrontational about this oil subject. You asked "how many more reasons do you need". Well I don't need any more than what you posted. But I have one question, which again brings me back to what I have been saying here. No one is questioning the quality of Syn, including me. But all I am reading here is people saying how much better it is, but no one has stated there actual operating parameters that makes then want to use Syn. I guess what I am asking here is this. If you operate your engines within the specified limits of what a conventional oil can handle, then of what benefit is using a Synthetic? And one of the reasons why no one can state actual operationg data, is simply because the average Joe has no training in lubrication enginnering, chemestry, & a bunch of other engineering & science you would need to provide data.

The oil companies, produce both products. Given the world we currently live in with all the wars, global economic pressures, supply interuptions, political horse hockey & whatever else, don't you think the oil companies wnat to sell you on the idea that Syn is the greatest invention since sliced bread. Some of our members here are not old enough to know that Syn oils are NOTHING NEW. They have been around for about the past seventy five years.

I personally do not use Syns simply because I do not run my stuff beyond what a conventional is designed to do. So Spending more for Syns would not give me any added benefit, other than one possibly, which would be extended time between changes. I am not at all AGAINST synthetics. I'm just questioning how people defend this stuff. No one here is condemming it. I'm just asking: Do you really need it.

In one of your points you stated you use it because you can afford to pay for it. If I had to disagree with you on anything, that would be the one point I would argue with you. It's a baseless point when it comes to deciding to use the stuff. There are a number of things that I can "Afford" to pay for, but would never opt to buy. Buying it & affording it are personal choice having nothing to do with the products use.

I hope no one gets upset over this. I'm just trying to get past all the marketing hype of oils & down to how you can really justify using one product over the other & which is the best product to use strictly based on Individual Operating Conditions of the machines. Please don't give me a beat down.
:flag_of_truce:

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Maddog, you ask a good question as to what parameters makes someone switch to synthetics. As I stated earlier in this thread, my specific reason for using synthetics is due to the cold climate I operate my equipment in where I live in Northern WI. We can see -35. It's not uncommon for us to have days/nights at -20 in the December and January months. Mechanical equipment that utilizes synthetics works better in the cold, especially at start up than non synthetics do. The majority of your engine wear comes during the first few minutes of starting your engine. My mechanical oil pressure gauge tells an accurate story of the differences between synthetics and non synthetics during cold weather start up. The engine also spins over much easier in the cold with synthetic oil in you engine which makes for easier starts. Your hydraulics will also require less warm up time if they are filled with synthetics.

I too am aware that synthetics have been around for use in airplanes for many decades. Al Amatuzio is the inventor of Amsoil synthetic oil. The Amsoil company is located where I live in Superior, WI. Amsoil is the company that refined the use of synthetic oil from airplane use to use in the automotive industry and to most everything now days.