Versa Turf

I sure wouldn't miss the benefits of the Versa Turf's over their country of manufacture. We live in a global economy and have for some time. The traction in American snow is vastly better by the VT's and I don't know who makes the R4's, but I would swear they were made in Bedrock in Fred Flintstone's quarry because they sure felt square compared to the Versa Turfs.............

I just bought the Versa Turfs, switching from the turf tires. What a world of difference. The Versa Turfs actually tear the lawn LESS (i.e. not at all, yet) than the turf tires. Depending on the slope and turn, the turf tires would lose traction and slip, spinning and ripping up the grass and leaving a divot. Forget them for loader work on grass at all...they destroy it. The Versa Turfs have none of these issues and have worked great for loader work on grass. I cannot wait to try them in the snow.

If you're upset about the tires being made in China...I sure hope you don't start looking around that tractor you've been sitting on...

I buy American whenever I can make sense of the value. Quality matters most, closely followed by value - which is really just a combination of quality, price, and features. A lot of American made stuff doesn't have substantially better quality (if any) for the price (usually substantially higher) you would otherwise pay, i.e. a bad value. I was recently looking at a product made in the U.S. for $700. There was an overseas version for $200, with little difference in quality or features. I did not pay $700. But, my tractor is outfitted with American made, and very expensive, Artillian gear, which has top notch quality, is easy to use, and will last forever - a good value.

It all depends on what you are buying.

SulleyBear said:

I sure wouldn't miss the benefits of the Versa Turf's over their country of manufacture. We live in a global economy and have for some time. The traction in American snow is vastly better by the VT's and I don't know who makes the R4's, but I would swear they were made in Bedrock in Fred Flintstone's quarry because they sure felt square compared to the Versa Turfs.............

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@SulleyBear

My R4s are Carlisle tires as are my VTs.

Steve

falcon67 said:

I just bought the Versa Turfs, switching from the turf tires. What a world of difference. The Versa Turfs actually tear the lawn LESS (i.e. not at all, yet) than the turf tires. Depending on the slope and turn, the turf tires would lose traction and slip, spinning and ripping up the grass and leaving a divot. Forget them for loader work on grass at all...they destroy it. The Versa Turfs have none of these issues and have worked great for loader work on grass. I cannot wait to try them in the snow.

If you're upset about the tires being made in China...I sure hope you don't start looking around that tractor you've been sitting on...

I buy American whenever I can make sense of the value. Quality matters most, closely followed by value - which is really just a combination of quality, price, and features. A lot of American made stuff doesn't have substantially better quality (if any) for the price (usually substantially higher) you would otherwise pay, i.e. a bad value. I was recently looking at a product made in the U.S. for $700. There was an overseas version for $200, with little difference in quality or features. I did not pay $700. But, my tractor is outfitted with American made, and very expensive, Artillian gear, which has top notch quality, is easy to use, and will last forever - a good value.

It all depends on what you are buying.

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Very true, however at least the USA made stuff employs people here in the US of A, and not near slave labor ( paid but not much) in China or other countries of similar ilk. It is terrible that USA manufacturers see fit to do this. At least Kenda, you knew from the name was not US of A based.

If Artillian is around long enough and gets large enough, they may very well do the same thing.

Not all ingredients of a product are made equally, whether it be strength or the amount of pollution expelled in making the product. We have that so over regulated here, which causes the difference in price. Not so from China.

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MarkEagleUSA said:

As far as I can tell they're made in a Carlisle factory in China. At least its not a 3rd party manufacturer.

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Since no one had US made Goodyears at the time I needed trailer tires I went Carlisle.
My Carlisle branded trailer tires are also china bombs. Putrescent.

John Deere 1025R TLB said:

Very true, however at least the USA made stuff employs people here in the US of A, and not near slave labor ( paid but not much) in China or other countries of similar ilk. It is terrible that USA manufacturers see fit to do this. At least Kenda, you knew from the name was not US of A based.

If Artillian is around long enough and gets large enough, they may very well do the same thing.

Not all ingredients of a product are made equally, whether it be strength or the amount of pollution expelled in making the product. We have that so over regulated here, which causes the difference in price. Not so from China.

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It's just SLIGHTLY more complicated than you are making it.

John Deere 1025R TLB said:

Explain what you mean?

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Ok, I will address what you said point by point:

1. US made stuff employs people in the US.

While the statement is obviously true, there are all kinds of underlying factors that it completely ignores.

First, it just assumes that because there is a need for a particular skill (job), that it can be filled by an American worker and that assumption is wrong. There are shortages of all kinds of skilled labor in this country, e.g. doctors, engineers, tradesmen, truck drivers, etc. Three of those four examples are jobs that cannot be outsourced to other countries. All of those shortages have been exacerbated by multiple factors like the poor state of education in this country, entitlement mentality that pervades huge swathes of the population (Democrats, Republicans, and anyone else), an elitist mentality prioritizing (often worthless) college educations over trades, and immigration policy. Yeah, that last one will really get some people going!

Furthermore, you have tens of millions of jobs available in this country that have gone unfilled. Some of that is because people have chosen to collect "enhanced" unemployment over working right now, but it also is because there are certain jobs Americans just don't want to do. You assume that American workers (in sufficient numbers) want to produce tires (or any other job). This is another wrong assumption.

Second, it assumes that just because something could be made in the U.S., that it should. If I'm a Chinese business owner that can make tires identical in quality and features to an American business owner, but I can make the Chinese product for $100 vs. the US product at $300, why on earth should the product be made in the US? Conversely, if I am an American farmer that can produce corn at $4 a bushel and make way more than I need, why would Chinese people buy Chinese corn that costs $15 a bushel to produce? That makes no sense at all. And this is the basis of all trade between countries, and in fact, people. This is a concept known as comparative advantage, which states that countries/companies/people should engage in the businesses where they have advantages in production, and trade for goods where they don't, and then both parties are better off. It's the same thing for people. The mechanic specializes in what they are good at, and trades their labor (in the form of money) for what they aren't good at. Unfortunately most people don't understand why trade happens or how wealth is created. But think of it this way - why would any trade happen at all if it wasn't mutually beneficial to both parties?

Finally, tying the two concepts together, let's take a look at a particular industry that proves my point - leading edge semiconductor manufacturing.

Taiwan Semiconductor makes the vast majority (~70% share) of leading edge semiconductors in the world, followed by Samsung (Korea). Everyone else has crumbs. Nearly 100% of the most advanced semiconductors in the world are made in Asia. These were not jobs that were sent overseas by an American company. And these companies produced the chips better and cheaper than everyone else. They only produce the chips - they don't engineer and design them. The most advanced semiconductors are still designed and engineered in the US and Europe. And engineering and design is where a lot of the value is. So for a semiconductor design and engineering firm, instead of investing literally tens of billions of dollars every two years for a single fab (manufacturing plant), of which they might need dozens, for something they are not good at, it makes sense to focus on their strengths (design and engineering), and let another company focus on their strengths (manufacturing). Both parties win. Keep in mind that these chips are not junk, they are the highest quality possible, and they are made cheaper than anywhere else.

So to wrap it up, I've demonstrated several points:

• Certain jobs cannot be filled by American workers at any cost
• There are shortages of labor in jobs that cannot be sent overseas
• There are jobs that Americans don't want to do for any reasonable wage
• Just because something could be made in the US, doesn't mean it makes sense to do so
• Focusing on out strengths and engaging in trade for things where we are relatively weak, makes the country better off, not worse off
• Countries/companies/people engage in trade because it makes both parties better off
• Some jobs aren't done in the US anymore not because a company sent the jobs overseas, but because it can be done better elsewhere

So yes, it's just slightly more complicated than jobs being sent to China solely because of cheaper labor, which brings me to the next point you made.

2. Workers in China and similar countries are paid near slave labor wages.

This is completely wrong for several reasons. First of all, the median annual wage in China is 97k Yuan


Which is the equivalent of $15k, which happens to be higher than the federal minimum wage in the United States.

Minimum hourly wages in China equate to about $3.75 an hour.

I'd argue that average wages being higher than the minimum wage in the U.S are hardly "near slave wages." And while $3.75 an hour for minimum wage in China might sound low, or even $15k a year, you are completely ignoring the lower cost of living in China.

Conveniently, economists track such things as the differences in costs of goods between countries, and calculate the relative value of currencies in each country. This is called Purchasing Power Parity. Basically, it says how much purchasing power a foreign currency would have in U.S. dollar equivalents. In this case, how far does one Chinese Yuan go in China in US dollar equivalents.

The purchasing power of one Chinese Yuan in China has 4.186 times the purchasing power of one US dollar in the U.S. In other words, the cost of living is way lower in China.


This means that you take the wages I just quoted above, and multiply them by 4.186 to see what the actual purchasing power is in China. Another way to think about it is what the equivalent wage would be in the U.S.

So in China, the average annual wage is equivalent to $63k US dollars, and the minimum wage is equivalent to $15.53 an hour when adjusted for difference in cost of living.

These are hardly near slave wages. China has had the fastest growing middle class in the world for decades now.

In fact, wages have grown so quickly in China that many companies have either started moving factories from China to other countries, or stopped investing in new factories in China because of this. Right now it costs $10,000 to ship a single container from Asia to the U.S., which is a huge part of the cost equation for companies, not just labor.

3. Not all products are made equally

I agree, and I already addressed that above. These are choices consumers make and what drives the market. Unless of course you'd prefer the government control everything, in which case people would be complaining we are communists. Consumers determine the value of a product to them. Not everyone wants to pay for Snap-On quality tools when they are going to use them once.

4. China pollutes, which allows them to make products cheaper, but we are over-regulated

Is your point that we should pollute more to make products cheaper? Or that we shouldn't buy products that pollute and ignore those costs (externalities)?

If your point is the former, pretty much nobody is going to agree with you. Ever been to China? It's a polluted hell-hole.

If your point is the latter, I'm not sure how you force China to not pollute their country other than through various forms of coercion if they aren't willing to do it. You can educate consumers on these externalities that aren't in the price of goods and help them make more informed decisions. Fortunately all the evidence in the world shows that as countries become richer, they become much cleaner because people demand a cleaner environment. I suspect in a couple decades, China will be much cleaner.

This may seem like a long post, but it actually simplifies the issues quite a bit.

So yes, it's slightly more complicated than you make it out to be.

falcon67 said:

Ok, I will address what you said point by point:


So yes, it's slightly more complicated than you make it out to be.

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No need to debate... the only reason those tires are made offshore is because its cheaper for the manufacturer. NO other reason.

All of the other points can be refuted by looking at US history when we were an industrial powerhouse and we had plenty of labor to make tires or cast JD parts. And we had the brainpower to engineer and build world class products.

Now the money shufflers outnumber the employees in industry, so jobs go away.

Rule292 said:

No need to debate... the only reason those tires are made offshore is because its cheaper for the manufacturer. NO other reason.

All of the other points can be refuted by looking at US history when we were an industrial powerhouse and we had plenty of labor to make tires or cast JD parts. And we had the brainpower to engineer and build world class products.

Now the money shufflers outnumber the employees in industry, so jobs go away.

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Oh, ok. No need to debate. Your assertion is all that is needed. The lack of brainpower you reference is evident in your way of thinking.

We still are an industrial powerhouse. We have the second largest industrial output in the world measured in dollars and in share of global production. And China has 4.25x the population of the US.


You also seem to forget, that the glory days of US manufacturing were in the 20 years following World War 2. Guess what? We were literally the only country left with an industrial base. Did you really think that would last forever?

But these are pesky little facts that don't need to be debated. Your brilliant assertions are all that is required. You win. You know everything.

falcon67 said:

Oh, ok. No need to debate. Your assertion is all that is needed. The lack of brainpower you reference is evident in your way of thinking.

We still are an industrial powerhouse. We have the second largest industrial output in the world measured in dollars and in share of global production. And China has 4.25x the population of the US.

These are the top 10 manufacturing countries in the world

China knocked the US off top spot in 2010.

www.weforum.org

You also seem to forget, that the glory days of US manufacturing were in the 20 years following World War 2. Guess what? We were literally the only country left with an industrial base. Did you really think that would last forever?

But these are pesky little facts that don't need to be debated. Your brilliant assertions are all that is required. You win. You know everything.

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It could have but our Gov't took us elsewhere.

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John Deere 1025R TLB said:

It could have but our Gov't took us elsewhere.

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You're right! Instead of spending 20 years in Afghanistan and letting the Taliban take the country back over in a week, we could have been bombing everywhere else! That way nobody could produce anything except the U.S.! After all, people in other countries have no right to compete with us! Only Americans have the right to jobs and to sell things!

If you think you've got it all figured out and can run a tire business, why don't you start your own? Nothing is stopping you, and the government won't take you elsewhere.

Deere Ol Man said:

I thought this was a versa turf thread. Not a made in USA Vs China made.

Steve

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It is...... was.....

What I meant with my comment to this guy was rather than take us in a direction of the current give aways, the Gov't could have promoted all jobs. Built industry instead of entitlement programs to promote laziness, or higher education only. One that would have promoted occupations that all citizenry of the country could work in. We will always have all levels of worker, with a need for all levels of jobs. Ones that could clean, to build, to design. Trades to intellect. All need to work.

Not sure what this guy does, but he obviously has a very different way of thinking.

If Carlisle can make the 26-12x12 tire here in the USA they could make the fronts as well, I would think. They have the workers. I looked at the fronts on Millers and assumed all versions were made overseas. My bad. But as others have stated their ( Carlisle Co.) Manufacture trailer tires, probably in the same plant as the front smaller versa turf tires and are described as "bombs". So are all made equally? Leaves a huge question mark on the thought of because it is made by a particular company, it will be made with the same quality anywhere they decide to put up a factory.

I only wish I could purchase both front as well as rear from the USA manufacturing site. You can dump a machine due to fronts blowing out at the wrong time. Can happen with anything, but..... Not good for the machine nor for health.

Only time and honest reporting by all will allow that to be known. They are not on enough tractors long enough and under enough conditions to have a good determination of longevity and strength of design along with the other difference, being locals of manufacture, to determine if they are as good as R4s.

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