Well Issues

JD4044M said:

Might be that rubber hose is breaking down on the inside and the fiber comes from it? Never saw man made fiber come out of a well in my life? Lots of sand, red iron bacteria, sulfur smell and dirt. The pressure gauge can get stuck and clogged up. Rust from the metal fittings will happen over time on reason I like Schedule 40 PVC/CPVC for my plumbing.

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Yeah the sand is normal and why we have the spin down pre-filter. A couple years ago I ripped out all the copper and other metal plumbing in the house other than this one area by the pressure tank. As you can see in the photo of the filters, everything from them on is PEX now.

It is possible that rubber hose is the source. I would imagine it has fibers like that. If it is, the hose is at risk of blowing out. I imagine I should replace it either way. I will have to look and see if I have any 1" PEX left over from the last project. I just find it confusing as to where it is coming from. I can't think of anything like that coming from the pump or anything in the well.

AlKozak said:

Are you sure the bladder in the pressure tank didn't burst? If there is nothing between the well pump and that (there usually isn't), then man-made fibers can only come from the either well pump or the tank.

Or maybe the drillers lost a tee-shirt down the well?

Al

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It is possible but I didn't think a bladder would have all those fibers. I always thought of it as little more than a rubber liner. We had a bladder rupture before I can drain everything again and see if I get water out of the schrader valve. That is the normal test for a ruptured bladder. The only reason I don't think it is that is that if I run the pump for a while, which I did when I was testing the pressure switch, I get a lot of water out of it. It maintains pressure until the tank is empty and I know it is because it moves easily. When my last tank ruptured I was getting a short cycling of the well pump and it was completely waterlogged.

Herminator said:

I suspect it might be the bladder as well, I hope so otherwise I would worry it is the pump impeller but if it was that I would think the check valve at the top of the pump would leak back.

Perhaps you know but the pressure tank should be pressurized to 2 psi below the kick in setting on the switch. In your case 38 psi. It is easy to check for the bladder, just unhook the pipe to the tank and put air to the bladder. If it leaks down it has failed, just like an inner tube.

I wish you the best.

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Yeah I should check the pressure again but I need to drain the tank first. I had installed this tank a few years back and set it to 38psi due to the 40/60 switch. I just filled it up again. Being I have filled and drained it a few times today and it is getting late I think I will wait a day. I want to let our septic system catch up as I have been running a lot of water down the drain.

JD4044M said:

You mentioned sand and I have the same problem as my well is 350' deep thru all rock after 19 feet of soil. I have replaced a pump in 10 yrs because of wear to the impellers. Sand will wear on anything rubber including the pressure tank rubber bladder. Easy to check the pressure bladder tank by just seeing if water comes out letting some air out and then letting the system go to no water pressure then test tank at air fill and set to 38 PSI if your start is 40 PSI. I would try to put a extra sediment filter before the pressure tank(Right off the well output) to keep the sediments from going into the tank bladder. It will last a lot longer this way.

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Yeah testing the bladder is on my task list the next time I drain the tank. Do you thing there might be fibers like what I am getting in the filter in the pressure tank bladder? I guess it is possible as I have never cut a tank apart. For the same reasons you mentioned, I think I am going to replace that rubber hose. I don't get a lot of sand but it would be in direct contact with the hose as it comes out of the ground and it is a lot older than the tank. I replaced the tank a few years back but we have been in the house 12 years and that hose predates or ownership by quite a bit. That would have fibers like I am seeing. I never liked that hose there. Just had a thought in the back of my mind that if it blew, when no one was home, out wouk completely flood the basement as nothing would be there to stop it unless the pump gave out.

I guess I could add another sediment filter before the tank. The problem is that the pipe for the tank is down on the ground. I could elevate the tank but water goes both in and out of that pipe so not sure how well that would work. I could place the filter before the T where it comes out of the ground. The problem with that is that I have read that you don't want to put a filter between the pump and pressure switch unless I changed how that is routed. I guess the reasoning is that if the filter would get clogged due to lack of maintenance, the pump may not be able to provide enough pressure to shut off the pressure switch.

Something where it comes out of the ground, an elbow with the fittings for the pressure switch and gauge. Then the sediment filter followed by the T where it branches to go to the filters and house or the pressure tank. If I did that, I could just move my sediment filter. I wouldn't have to order a new one. So that would leave just my whole house charcoal filter between the pressure tank and house since sediment would be trapped up steam from the tank. Also I wouldn't have a filter between the pump and pressure tank. That could work.

I should also mention that I don't get a lot of sand. Now I get that I probably have much more in the pressure tank because out is a low point but on my once every three month replacement schedule for the charcoal filter, I flush the sediment filter and get less than a teaspoon of sand out. I put in that flush valve for the tank but don't did it as much as I should. I flushed out what was probably 2 x 40 gallon tanks and got maybe 3/4 cup of sand.

coaltrain said:

As far as a quick band-aid fix -

I have a spring and a jet pump. Over time some sediment gets into the system. Also my pump is really old.

About every 2-3 months I have to clean the pressure switch. It gets gunk built up in it. There is a little bladder in the switch.

Easy enough to clean - remove the switch and rinse it out at the water port. Might need a little tool to help but don’t use something like a piece of wire so you don’t puncture the bladder.

This should keep your pump working properly until you can get to the real issue.

Edit to add - gizmo posted the same time I did - his pictures tell my story also.

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etcallhome said:

Concerned about the fiber ,,could it just be a bad filter cartridge ..:dunno:


Now the reason why pump won't shut off, clogged pressure switch. , thinking it needs replaced.

Pressure gauge probably defective (clogged) .


:dunno:

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As I mentioned in my first post, I also suspected the pressure switch and or clogged nipple. Both were replaced yesterday along with the pressure gauge while I was at it as my first steps. The fibers I suspect are clogging one of the passages to the nipple. I could clean it out but need to find the source of the fibers or it will just clog up again.

I have two filters in my water system not counting the RO drinking water stuff. The one that trapped these fibers is my first filter which is the sediment trap. If you go back to the first post it is the one on the left. They were in the outside of the filter so they were trapped going into the filter from the pump/ pressure tank side. As you can also see in that photo the other filter is a charcoal filter not one of those cloth filters. That is my secondary filter. If there are any filters before the sediment filter it would be 165' down in the bottom of the well, that should just be a plastic or steel screen type sediment filter on the bottom of the pump. I can't imagine there is any cloth type filter anywhere else and they wouldn't put anything like that down at the bottom of the well since it couldn't be changed without pulling the pump.

Right now I am thinking the rubber hose that connects to the copper pipe as it comes out of the ground. There is about a 2' section of hose which is pretty old. My game plan for now is to drain the pressure tank and verify that it is good. Then get a parts list going for replacing everything from where the copper pipe comes out of the ground to where I tie into the filters and pressure tank. I may also move my sediment filter to go between the pressure switch and pressure tank/rest of house. That work might have to wait until this weekend unless I can take a day off this week. My Wednesday is pretty wide open at the moment.

JD4044M said:

The Bladder is made out of rubber with out fibers. Took to many apart in the past just to see inside what went wrong. Most were because of a leak and rust getting in the air chamber and wearing the bladder out real quick as it rubs on the surface expanding and contracting as it works. I have seen black and yellow colored bladders. The yellow ones got real stiff over time and seemed to just blow out? Most tanks have a bolted on bottom so the bladder can be put inside the steel tank. PS I just changed out a pressure switch for a neibor that was defective being clogged up a damaged Pressure Gauge damaged due to freezing. The pressure switches are cheap enough to just replace due to they can stick on when bad also and I just don't chance cleaning them for like $30.00 verses what can happen if they stick at the wrong time on or off. Looking at your pictures it appears the cartrige filters are after the pressure switch? Here is a picture of the internal hose breaking down maybe showing fibers like what your dealing with? View attachment 573609 A article on it I found.https://www.researchgate.net/figure/View-a-shows-the-fracture-surface-of-Section-1-see-Fig-3-and-the-fracture-origin_fig4_259172858 When you replace this hose to see, split it with a razor knife and take a look inside it and see if it was the cause. I have a pressure blow off valve on my system incase the switch sticks as my 13 stage pump can put out 400 PSI lifting water 350 ft up and if it stuck I could have a mess. The relief valve is connected to a pipe going outside the pump house.

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Interesting photo. That does kind of look like the fibers that I am seeing. Like I said, I will be doing a pressure tank test I might hold off until Wednesday as I have been cleared to have that day off. So I can work on it all day and have access to stores that are actually open. For now it is only me at home so not a big deal to just leave the circuit breaker to the well off. I run it for a bit if I need water and my pressure tank seems to be working fine in that I have plenty of water if I wanted to take a shower. I normally do this at the gym though during the week.

Yeah, I agree pressure switches are cheap. I think it was $28 for a new Square D 40/60 switch when I bought it on Sunday. Another couple bucks for the 1/4 x 4" nipple and a couple for the pressure gauge. I have plenty of teflon tape at home so it was a $35 trip to the store to replace all that stuff. Though I knew this was a band-aid attempt at a fix, the fibers are the issue.

Yes the filters are after the pressure switch. Water comes up through the slab in a copper pipe. 1 1/4 or so. Then it is the rubber hose which I am suspect of. If you go back to that photo in the first post you can see it in the background. It is a dark red color. The transition from copper from the ground to rubber is just behind the pressure gauge. It runs up the wall a bit and switches back to copper where there is a T. You can see in that same photo where the copper pipe then comes back down, makes a 90 turn and comes into that steel pipe where there is the drain faucet, pressure gauge and pressure switch. From there it tuns down, a union and a T going to the pressure tank and another drain line I added to be able to flush out the pressure tank. If you go back to the first T when it transitioned from rubber back to copper. The other run goes to the spin down sediment filter then the cartridge carbon filter then on to the rest of the house. That is one of the other photos. The reason for all the ball valves around the spin down filter is so I can reverse the flow of water through the spin down sediment filter, blowing out the sediment. There is a trap down at the bottom with a ball valve that I can open with a bucket there to clean that filter out without removing it. This filter is just a plastic screen. The real filtration on this comes from the cyclone effect that pulls the sediment to the outside while the water is flowing and once it stops it will drop down into the trap. It will pick up some smaller sediment on the screen but the reverse flow trick blows it out and down the ball valve on the bottom into the bucket.

We don't have a pressure relief in this part but I would imagine it might trip the pressure relief at the tankless water heater if it went crazy. That won't work though if that rubber hose blew on me. Once I pull that rubber hose it is my plan to dissect it and see if it might be the source of my issue.

Ok, I have a new question. Anyone know what to call the pipe where the pressure gauge, nipple for the pressure switch and other pipes screw in? The main galvanized pipe in this photo that is like a cross with two ports.



It is kind of like this Solid Tank Cross in this link.

https://www.fleetfarm.com/detail/campbell-solid-tank-cross-stc4-3/0000000089931?Ntt=well

Last night I was trying to pull the end cap off of what I have to see if I could get it cleaned out and I couldn't get it to budge. Not wanting to break anything on a Sunday night when nothing was open and I didn't have time to deal with it until later in the week, I gave up. If I can't get these parts off to clean this out I might just say the heck with it and replace it all. Just not sure what to call this. While I might be able to use the Solid Tank Cross in the link above, the problem is I don't know that it is long enough to reach the pressure tank coupler, if it is the right size and the other issue is it moves my pressure switch down to the floor. I don't know that my wires are long enough. It just opens another set of issues. I could build a platform to support the tank but yet more stuff to do. Something like the Solid Tank Cross would work if it didn't have that tank part. I just don't know what to call this part. The rest shouldn't be too hard to figure out.

gbnpp05 said:

try searching for well pressure switch manifold. I did and this came up. Didn't check any other links.

https://www.amazon.com/Installation-Pressure-SQUARE-pressure-switch/dp/B00SW0E26I

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That is along the lines of what I found earlier.

I did find this one which could work.

https://www.menards.com/main/plumbi...11-c-8672.htm?tid=8920998822616939471&ipos=68

or this one.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Water-Source-4-in-x-1-in-Brass-Tank-Tee-TC4NL/203990004

At least they are shorter. The one with the 12" part would work but depending on how it works I might have to cap it off. I can't see if they have these in stock at a store. I will go by a Menards to night on the way home and we have two more close to the house so I have a few local ones that I can stop by and see if they have them in stock.

I bought my other stuff at Lowe's and I know their well supply stuff is pretty minimal. Heck they didn't even have a 1/4 x 4" galvanized nipple. I ended up going to Ace Hardware for that since I could get in and out of there quicker than Menards. The smallest that Lowe's had was 3/8". They sell a pressure switch but no way to install it. :banghead:

Edit: Actually looking at my photo again maybe the longer 12" one would work. I could spin it around and run that back toward the wall, then do an elbow going up to the rest of my pluming. For the short sides of the T, one will go to a faucet the other on to the pressure tank like I have now.

Yeah that kind of confirms my thoughts on it as well.

Maybe I should clarify why I was asking because rust would seem like the obvious thing on why on earth use galvanized when it will eventually rust vs brass which should last a lot longer.

It is more of a question about metal reactions. Mixing two metals can sometimes have a less than desirable effect. I should be fine because I have copper coming out of the ground. Can't do anything about that. Anyone that has done any plumbing has used a brass sweat fitting at some point and that is very common when going from copper to PEX which is the first jump I have to make. Of course there isn't going to be a concern between the copper, brass and PEX. So going back to brass for the Manifold or Tank T whatever you want to call the part where the pressure switch and gauge mount will be fine. I might want to replace my nipple that I just bought with a brass one. But then getting down to the pressure tank. That is steel. I just wasn't sure if there will be any issues going from brass to steel of the tank and if I might be better off doing galvanized. Being the Tank T comes in Brass makes me think it isn't a big deal but I guess that is why I was asking. I want to say brass is one of those metals that is less reactive when mixing with other dissimilar metals but wasn't sure. I want to say it is the zinc in brass that can cause the issues. I guess I didn't look at that Tank T close enough maybe it is Bronze which would replace the zinc with tin which may be less reactive to the steel pressure tank.

As a side note, I do homebrewing and in a home brew system while it would be much cheaper to use brass for fittings we never use it. We spend the extra money for stainless because brass also has lead at low quantities. While we pass the drinking water through a RO system, lead isn't that desirable anymore in water pipes. I would imagine they keep the levels pretty low for this reason though. I think part of the reason people don't like brass in that homebrewing application is because of the low melting point of lead and dealing with wort at boiling temps. Like I said I just use stainless for my fittings. They are more expensive but you don't need that many and they are not that much more. It is also a one time purchase so not a big deal.

Made a bit of progress today, well at least I think I know my next steps.

Lastnight I did a couple tests. Drained the water from the system and checked the pressure in the pressure tank. Oddly it was at 28psi. Well depending on what gauge I used. So I pumped it up to 38 which is where it should be since I have a 40/60. Ran the well for a bit. I eventually shut it off and had the thought of seeing what the pressure was in the tank now. Not sure it it will relate to the gauge pressure but not sure why it wouldn't. It read about 53PSI. No where near the 60 but not sure if that is a sign of anything. Decided to leave it till morning since I took today off. As I am getting ready for bed I ran some water but the flow stopped. Hmm. I had run the well for several minutes and it should have at least partially filled the pressure tank but nothing. I went back down. Everything looked fine so I decided to fill the bathtub in case I am without water for a while. So I turned on the pump and let it run while I filled that. Once full I turned off the pump. Probably not much water in the pressure tank but I still had some.

This morning I turned on the bath faucet and nothing. So I went back down since the pressure tank was empty and checked the pressure. Still at 38. I don't think the bladder is totally ruptured at this point. So I decided to tear into things. My first thought was to go after the hose first. But it is kind of hard to get to with the pressure tank and T in the way. So I disconnected the union going to the pressure tank. Oh it is pretty light so not water logged again a sign that it isn't the tank. I get the T off and decide to take a closer look at it now that I can see in the back of it. Remember how I said that the where the pressure gauge is looked blocked off for some reason. I thought it felt like threads and though maybe that plug was too long and extended past that. Now that I could see inside there isn't anything there. I think it is just blocked by scale and there is nothing blocking the pressure switch nipple. The nipple and the switch are new. So I grabbed a screwdriver and punched it through the scale and opened up where the pressure gauge goes. That got me thinking. I wonder if that 53PSI reading I got on the "full" pressure tank is right and it isn't cutting off because I am not getting to 60 PSI. Now that I can get the pressure gauge to work I can get a better picture on what is happening. It will only take 10 min and a bit of teflon tape to reassemble things. Sure it doesn't tell me what the fibers are but it will let me test the well pump. So I slap it all back together, power up the well and the gauge springs to life. After running the pump for five minutes or so I realize that it isn't going any higher than 53psi or so. It appears that reading I got from the pressure tank when full is probably pretty close to the gauge reading that I am getting now that it works and it is why my 40/60 switch isn't cutting out.

So why can't I get to 60PSI. At this point, I think it is time to throw in the towel. I suspect there isn't anything I can do about it on the top side. I am going to keep an eye on things and see if the water pressure drops off my 50 PSI. The only thing I guess I could do to buy some time is install a 30/50 switch to maybe hold off until we don't have a foot of snow out there. Either way I suspect the pump needs to get pulled. That means new pump and at that point in time we can address the rubber hose. I am thinking there are a couple possibilities at this point. Most likely I would say that the pipe coming up from the well to the pitless might have a break. I guess it is possible that there were some fibers in the casement that got washed down to the well and picked up and made it into the house. Not sure. That might explain the water loss when the pump is off. Maybe there is some insulation on the well pump and the well pump housing has split. Possible check valve failure on the output side of the pump but that wouldn't explain why we can't get to 60psi unless it is leaking there. At this point I am going to call the well guy and see what their availability is.

Yeah, our well is probably in that 16-18 year range. Not sure.

Just got off the phone with the well guy that worked on that last one. He is a former neighbor of my In-Laws. He does't do wells anymore as he is getting older and they are a lot of work. He recommended another name and just got off the phone with them. They said they will be out today.

I agree that I could adjust the pressure switch down. Not sure why I didn't think of that... :banghead: Though it is a non issue. I described everything to him except the fibers. Forgot about that point as we were talking about other stuff. Anyhow he said they have everything they need on the truck which was my question. I wasn't sure if they would need to order some stuff more so because I am considered going with a higher pressure than 40/60. My In-laws stay up here most of the summer in the their 5th wheel. They have complained about poor water pressure but hey the rent is free. We messed up when we ran water down there and only used a 1/2" PEX run rather than 3/4 or 1". I had been thinking a while back that if we boosted the pressure and installed a pressure limiter for the rest of our house it might help. I didn't want to do it in the past because I didn't know if our pump could take it or if it needed a bigger pump and such. He said that the pumps they use are fine with higher pressure. We could do 60/80 if we wanted but we would have problems in the house since toilets are only designed for 70 or so. I mentioned the pressure limiter for the rest of the house since the feed for the In-Laws is right at the pressure tank and he said that would be possible if we wanted but still thought that it might not help much for how much something like that would cost. In the mean time they are going to set the cut out at 70psi which will help a bit.

As far as the gauge. They are just a guide. I agree they are not reliable but even if not 100% accurate they sure help in troubleshooting. For instance being able to see if you are dropping pressure when the pump isn't running. In my case I am not even close to my cut out pressure and it isn't raising anymore.

We should have some answers today not to mention a lighter pocket book. I asked the first guy if he knew a ball park cost after telling him the depth. He said it will greatly depend on quality of components but lets say on a 160-170' well about $1400-2800 was his guess.

Could be worse. The timing isn't all that bad. Should hit the 40s today. I still have about 8" of snow on the ground around the well head. Family is in Florida for spring break and I am here dealing with this so everything should be back to normal by the time they get back home.

I can live without water. A great excuse to just drink beer. :bigbeer: Beer in my corn flakes this morning. Brush my teeth with beer. Shave with beer. I might have to pick up some cheap stuff. I would hate to waste a good IPA on a close shave.

Time for an update.

First from earlier in the morning when I pulled the T. This is the inside and then the port that was plugged for the pressure gauge.





I used a screwdriver to clear the sediment and when I put it together the pressure gauge worked so I was able to see that I could only get 53 or so PSI. It was time to call in the professionals.

I get a call from JJ that he was on the way. He then asks if he can get the truck to the well head. Ahhh sure there is some snow but I can take care of that.

I went out put the blower on the X and started working at clearing a road for the truck. The problem was I had used it a few weeks ago to move the snow away from the pole barn. Then those couple big snow falls I used the blower to clear the sidewalk. All of this snow went in one big pile, right through that pile I needed to make a road. Hmmm. The blower couldn't cut through the 6-8" of ice on top of the 6-8" snow. Hmm. I got a lot of it cleared but time to try something else. I drop the blower and quick hitch in the driveway and head down to one of my other buildings where the FEL spends its winter. Hook that up and I was able to bust through the ice and move the snow away. Just as I was finishing up my new road JJ pulled up. He appreciated the snow work and was able to back right up to the well.



As the pump was coming up I noticed wet pipes at about 80'. That means the pump is 80' underwater.

Here is the old pump.



The pipe was all in really good condition. No sign of holes or leakage. They must have been replaced the last time the well was done. As he was removing the tape securing the wire I noticed that the wet areas that had surface rust were rust free when the tape came off.

JJ was splicing in the wire and I saw him go over to one of the side storage areas and start cutting small chunks off what looked like a copper refrigerator water line. He takes the three pieces he cut off and brings them over to the well. I asked if he just made his own butt splices? Yep we have been doing them this way for years. Too many times the butt splices fail. We have never seen one of these fail. The two wires sit next to each other in the copper tubing and he crimped it in a few places.



New pump going down.



We powered up the pump.... Did he put it down the well pipe or the septic cleanout?



So, everything is running now. I showed him the fibers, he is pretty sure they are from the impeller as it was letting go. That explains the lack of pressure.

Total damage.... $1150.00