All this is just theory, show me some evidence!

OK, here is some...:bash: :laugh:

This was posted elsewhere, but I do have written permission from the owner to use these pictures here:

Some details/facts:

Tractor: John Deere 4105
Loader: John Deere 300cx
Bucket: http://fieldquip.com.au/products-page/front-end-loader-attachments/4-in-1-bucket/ It is 6' wide and weights in at about 660 pounds!
R4 tires, NOT loaded
Rear implement: A "ripper" of unknown weight.

So, lets analyze this a little:
The bucket is way to heavy, it alone is about 400 pounds heavier than the stock bucket, and weighs almost half of the lift capacity alone. The ripper is probably about 150 pounds at best. You can see that when the operator started down the hill, the rear end got so light that it just went over into a endo, and the entire weight is now resting on the front axle and the FEL/bucket. Obviously during this transition ALL the weight was on the front axle for a short time, you can also see that the front wheels "folded" over. The owner/operator is very lucky the tractor did not tip over!
Had this operator been more experienced, he could have just lowered the FEL slowly, but he panicked-and got off the machine to get help and take pictures-lucky for us . With more experience, he also probably would have had the bucket lower while traveling, or even backed down that steep hill.


The owner is new to tractors-this is his first one. The dealer sold this setup to him, so who is really at fault? My answer is BOTH, here is why:

Dealer: He should known better, and understand the product he sells and what's all needed to make it work properly and safely. He should have known the bucket was to heavy, and that the owner did not have proper ballast (the ripper). He should have informed the owner about the problems using that bucket and advised him not to buy it even it meant loosing a sale. A injured, paralyzed or dead customer will not be good for repeat business.

Owner: He should have read the manuals that where included with his equipment, and stopped when things did not feel right.

 

All this is just theory, show me some evidence!

OK, here is some...:bash: :laugh:

This was posted elsewhere, but I do have written permission from the owner to use these pictures here:

Some details/facts:

Tractor: John Deere 4105
Loader: John Deere 300cx
Bucket: http://fieldquip.com.au/products-page/front-end-loader-attachments/4-in-1-bucket/ It is 6' wide and weights in at about 660 pounds!
R4 tires, NOT loaded
Rear implement: A "ripper" of unknown weight.

So, lets analyze this a little:
The bucket is way to heavy, it alone is about 400 pounds heavier than the stock bucket, and weighs almost half of the lift capacity alone. The ripper is probably about 150 pounds at best. You can see that when the operator started down the hill, the rear end got so light that it just went over into a endo, and the entire weight is now resting on the front axle and the FEL/bucket. Obviously during this transition ALL the weight was on the front axle for a short time, you can also see that the front wheels "folded" over. The owner/operator is very lucky the tractor did not tip over!
Had this operator been more experienced, he could have just lowered the FEL slowly, but he panicked-and got off the machine to get help and take pictures-lucky for us . With more experience, he also probably would have had the bucket lower while traveling, or even backed down that steep hill.


The owner is new to tractors-this is his first one. The dealer sold this setup to him, so who is really at fault? My answer is BOTH, here is why:

Dealer: He should known better, and understand the product he sells and what's all needed to make it work properly and safely. He should have known the bucket was to heavy, and that the owner did not have proper ballast (the ripper). He should have informed the owner about the problems using that bucket and advised him not to buy it even it meant loosing a sale. A injured, paralyzed or dead customer will not be good for repeat business.

Owner: He should have read the manuals that where included with his equipment, and stopped when things did not feel right.

What's the old saying...picture worth 1K words.

Dave

 

So what does John Deere say about all this?

Recently, a member ( Thanks Claudster! ) posted a .pdf document given to him by his dealer/salesman. It should be REQUIRED reading for every sales person and buyer IMHO.

There is also a Ballast Calculator that JD made years ago, it runs in MS Excell.

Both of these are attached below.




Now, lets :read our owners manual-yes

Let's look at the ever-so-popular 1026R with the H120 FEL for example (note that ballast information is in the loader manual, not the one for the tractor itself):

Link to the online manual: OMW54640

In section 15, "Prepare the Tractor" we find this chart:

You will see that the minimum weight required is 506 pounds, and that also you should have 3 iron weights on each rear wheel! Sounds like overkill eh? Well maybe it is, but it does get the point across that you must have weight on the rear of these tractors to operate them safely and effectively. How many salesman know this information, relay it to the customers? My guess is very few.

 

Great job Ken!!:thumbup1gif: This is just what we need. Maybe this will answer some recurring questions about 3PT ballasting.

Greg

 

Excellent article Kenny! :thumbup1gif:

 

Excellent post indeed! I always fret when I see people operating tractors with limited to no weight in the back. Loaded tires/wheel weights are almost required in my book, but even that isn't close to enough for maxing out a loader.

Thanks for the reminder!

 

Good point about the front axle piviot causing instability when the rear wheels come up, I didn't think of that. If you're used to a skid loader.... it's not as big of an issue if the rear wheels "bob" once in a while.

 

Great Stuff!

 

Kenny,

Thanks for the detailed analysis of load vs ballast.

When I looked at the pictures of the up-ended tractor, I thought, What does he have in that bucket? Imagine my surprise when I discovered the answer is Nothing.

 

When I looked at the pictures of the up-ended tractor, I thought, What does he have in that bucket? Imagine my surprise when I discovered the answer is Nothing.

I thought the same thing when I looked at the pictures. Something like "Is he carrying a full load of pig iron in that bucket?"

Closer inspection of the picture shows there is a lot of extra iron (or steel) in that empty bucket. There are 6 hydrualic cylinders. This design is like "2 buckets in one" and probably twice the weight of a basic bucket. It also seems like the width of the bucket extends significantly beyond the width of the wheels. That can be useful for carrying blocks of styrofoam, but not so good for a bucket full of wet sand.

 

Wouldnt it also be true that the further back you have your ballast, the less weight is required. In otherwords by extending a balast box 6" more back with an imatch turns 400lbs into 450lbs or so? basically moving the fulcrum point?

 

Absolutely correct Todd, great point.

 

Not moving the fulcrum point (your rear axle), but extending your lever. :good2:

 

Thank you Kenny

I am receiving my 1026 r tomorrow and while my sales person said my rear tires were weighted I think I will ask a few more questions when he brings my rig in.

Great stuff

Big mike

 

Even with just blower on the front I would not be with out rear ballast.

Doug

 

Exactly. The machine might handle it fine but the stress it puts on the front axle is immense.

 

Good start but terminology seems misused. First off loaded rear tires DO NOT have to be airborne to be ballast. Does a submarine have to be airborne for its ballast to work? This ballast will not take weight off the front axle but it will act to oppose being lifted off the ground.

The main point seems to be by making your ballast box airborne you are creating a counterweight to the FEL by virtue of two opposing levers. A counterweight will remove or balance weight from the front axle, in this case, to the fulcrum or the rear axle depending on how much counterweight is used at the other end of the lever.

 

I finally made myself a rear ballast for my 655. Last month I had a foundation put in for my garage; 16'x24', the day they poured the walls for the foundation, I had made myself a mold out of scrap plywood & 2x4's. So with the extra concrete, I had them fill my mold. I estimate it weighs about 480 lbs. I made some brackets and bought two pins to attach to the lower arms of my three point hitch. The only mistake I made is that I didn't place those two pins high enough so that when I lower the weight I have to set it on a couple of blocks of 4x4's.

 

I finally made myself a rear ballast for my 655. Last month I had a foundation put in for my garage; 16'x24', the day they poured the walls for the foundation, I had made myself a mold out of scrap plywood & 2x4's. So with the extra concrete, I had them fill my mold. I estimate it weighs about 480 lbs. I made some brackets and bought two pins to attach to the lower arms of my three point hitch. The only mistake I made is that I didn't place those two pins high enough so that when I lower the weight I have to set it on a couple of blocks of 4x4's.

View attachment 14121

Nice job RL. Is the top link attachment tied to the lower pins inside the concrete somehow?

Maybe this needs a new thread?

 

I bought a bracket from Tractor Supply and cut it in half; creating two angle brackets. Each bracket has a 5/8" threaded rod about 6" long with a clip and nut at the end buried from the top. The top bracket is not attached to the lower pins.

 

Nicely done!:thumbup1gif:

 

Thanks for the redirect to this thread. Brings back old memories from my physics classes on fulcrums, levers etc. I understand the need for ballast now and will apply this technique either via counterweighting with an attachment on the 3-point hitch or a ballast box. I think I might get a custom ballast made from my bro-in-law who is a journeyman welder.
:good2:

 

I would continue to research the subject on this site, several users have done very clever things to make their ballast box's have more functionality than dead weight, such as adding 2" or 3" tubes in it to hold tools, or hitches on the back...

 

The Ballast Box is great for scraping up hard packed snow also.

 

In the non snow season, all five months of it, when I use my ballast box I have it a little over 3/4 full of sand/gravel. That leaves me with a shallow box for carrying chains, straps, etc. Next year I plan to weld some brackets to it to carry long handle tools and maybe something to better carry the chainsaw with.

 

Well, I ended up getting the Ballast box from JD. Got it at a great price ($225) brand new as they wanted to get rid of it for end of year. The guys there still didn't really think I needed counterweight for the 3520 and discouraged me from wheel weights or fluid in the tires. In the end, the compromise was the ballast box. They sited increased wear and tear on the CUT, too much weight when on turf if permanantly ballasted as being issues. At least I have some ballasting now either with a rear implement or the ballast box when lifting heavy with the FEL. I feel better about it myself for safety and lifting performance.

 

My $.02 is just have them read the manual... pretty sure John Deere knows what they're talking about.

Jim

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

Yea, I actually did tell them I read the manual front to back along with the 300CX manual and mentioned what it said. Also told them about this forum and the member recommendations. They still had their advice to share!:dunno:
Well at least we all eventually agreed on the ballast box, with then a great price.:thumbup1gif:

 

Good deal Rod, you will never regret having that.

 

After you try using the loader with no ballast, you'll quickly see how beneficial to the machine and how much more capable it is when your new ballast box is on. :thumbup1gif:

 

Well I finally got around to actually putting some ballast in my JD ballast box. I chose paving bricks for ease of loading and unloading if I need to. I put in 30 bricks so far for a total of 180 lbs. It filled the box around a 3rd full. With that weight, plus the 125 lbs for the box, and the iMatch I believe I'm around 380 lbs.
I plan on purchasing another 30 bricks. They are quite inexpensive as it cost me only $26.75 for 30 pieces.
The little weight I did add so far has already improved my rear traction and also my loader stability when moving snow.:good2:

 

Added another 32 paving bricks = 192 lbs.
Roughly around 572 lbs as rear ballast now. Still have more room for bricks if I want in the future. For now I think this will work for what I'm doing.